Domestic Row 4/Row 23 and seating for WP Discussion

[Fantic125]

The key word here is "selection". JohnK did select his preferred seat but due to matters out of his control and probably Qantas's, it could not be honoured, but the stated benefit of "seat selection" was provided. Im not sure what more anyone could want or expect??

As I said in a previous post;

I think you need to re-read his original few posts.

• His complaint was that he had originally selected a forward aisle seat.
• Due to the aircraft changes he was then put into a middle seat (5B).
• Due to a bug in the seat selection system he wasn't able to select another seat until he went to check in.
• His preferred aisle seats (4C/D) weren't available so he chose 4F (window seat).

His complaint is not the the woman seated next to him in 4E "stole" his seat as this is a middle seat which he had not chosen and would not typically prefer to choose.

His complaint is that on a lightly loaded aircraft (as this flight appeared to be) QF would typically spread the passenger load around the cabin to increase passenger comfort rather than load up full rows of seats.

It is known that (rightly or wrongly) QF typically retain row 4 for higher status pax, so it was a bit surprising that QF would allocate the middle seat in row 4 to a person with no QF status on a lightly laden flight.

I think that's the point he was trying to make.

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

By definition - a regular F class flyer will have status.

Really? at my time at BA, I found that the majority of top concorde passengers didn't have any frequent flyer status. They could afford to pay for the service they expected, and that IMO is the definition of true class and status.

Whats to force any person, flying F or otherwise to accumulate points and SC's? They don't have to be a FF member to be a FF. Just saying.....

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Interesting argument with just 3 minor problems:

1. Metro doesn't have a frequent trainer program
2. <snip>
3. Metro doesn't have a frequent trainer program.

Whilst the QFF program does offer better seat selection to status pax, it does not stop other pax from *also* being seated in those seats. It maybe that the pax in 4E was travelling with 4D or someone else with status. Or it maybe that they were in 24B, and asked for a better seat. Or for any number of other reasons that we are not aware of.

JohnK got what he paid for: a seat from A to B, plus access to a preferred seat per his status entitlement. Given the non-scheduled aircraft change, and the fact that we all know that "stuff happens" when flying, I think this is a storm in a teacup, especially since it's a 1 hour flight. Worse things happen - being downgraded to another class due to aircraft change (for example) on 8 hour flights!

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

It seems obvious that you don't really understand how status is calculated. Status is the over all measure of value that takes into account cabin and fare paid. Status is what is important in combination with fare paid.

I beg to differ.

Every fare on QF accrues points and SC's. WP Status is nothing more than accumulating the required number of sectors (4) and SC's (1400 to obtain and 1200 to maintain) It has no bearing on the value of the fare, the cabin flown or fare paid. Sure, you get there faster when these factors are taken into account, but thats about the extent of it.

Does QF distinguish between WP's who fly 2x per year in international F vs the red e deal shuttle flyer? The net result is the same, but the F flyer is much more "valuable" to QF.

I do agree with your last point, but its somewhat of a moot point. In paid F, Id expect a non status passenger to be treated in exactly the same way as a WP passenger, because you have paid for the privilege.

 

[bossreggie]

Really? at my time at BA, I found that the majority of top concorde passengers didn't have any frequent flyer status. They could afford to pay for the service they expected, and that IMO is the definition of true class and status.

Whats to force any person, flying F or otherwise to accumulate points and SC's? They don't have to be a FF member to be a FF. Just saying.....

I get what you are saying....... BUT a lot of top tier Frequent Flyers start as an entry level member, flying Y, and as they get older and earn more, or get promoted, their status rises!

I was only lucky enough to fly Concorde a few times and the first time I wasn't a Frequent Flyer with any airline. I remember the stewardess (that was what they were called then) on the flight telling me about the BA frequent flyer program and it was in the magazine. I never joined as I didn't think I'd fly BA that often. I've still got my luggage tags form my flights. They were plastic and just said "Concorde" with the BA logo. No priority tags on that plane!!


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[simongr]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

All this from me posting that I was disappointed to be stuck in 25B... And no-one responded to my comment about not getting my usual 23B and how I was incensed as that Well except for JohnK - but seeing the abuse hurled his way I am surprised anyone responded...

I may not fly F as much as you, (I'm only around 30-40 F flights per year) but I have NEVER had to balance a meal on my lap in the F Lounge! When you are called the day prior to your flight to book a treatment etc, tell them then that you intend to have a meal. That's what the "reserved" signs are for!! It's like a restaurant.... They have table numbers too. Ask for it next time and then you should be able to book at a suitable time AND at your favourite table.

I actually have been disappointed not to get my preferred table in the F lounge (WP access rather than paid F of course)...

From my perspective I know that I can generally get 3rd row of whY at booking and this past few months I have been able to get into first row of whY on every flight that didn't have disruptions. As a result I sort of expect to get that and if I don't get it I am a little disappointed - but the only thing it tells me is that there are at least 8/12 or 12/14 people that for some reason are more important to QF than me.

 

[JohnPhelan]

The SYD/MEL F lounges would not exist in their current form - and you would have 1 premium lounge in SYD which would resemble the T5 CCR - but that would be it.

I think the concept of QF setting up a Concord Room-like facility at SYD is an excellent one. This would effectively be copying the BA concept by having three styles of international lounge:
* Business - for those travelling in J, or with Sapphire status or QP membership
* First - for those travelling in F (oneworld airlines) or with Emerald status
* Extra First (with a better name!) - for those travelling in QF First or CL members (perhaps P1 members as well).

Perhaps this could be a possibility if the Sydney Airport's plan for the combined QF dom/int precinct ever happens ......

 

[wilco]

I get what you are saying....... BUT a lot of top tier Frequent Flyers start as an entry level member, flying Y, and as they get older and earn more, or get promoted, their status rises!

I was only lucky enough to fly Concorde a few times and the first time I wasn't a Frequent Flyer with any airline. I remember the stewardess (that was what they were called then) on the flight telling me about the BA frequent flyer program and it was in the magazine. I never joined as I didn't think I'd fly BA that often. I've still got my luggage tags form my flights. They were plastic and just said "Concorde" with the BA logo. No priority tags on that plane!!

I have a number of different luggage tags made exclusively for concorde, in addition to the inflight gifts they used to give out to select passengers. The little stationary packs were also quite cool, especially if you got the captain to sign the certificate (which I did!)

Concorde bettered First class. It was Supersonic (R) Class.

 

[reductionist]

I think I agree with the OP.

In the fictional world where I run an airline I would attempt to keep an empty seat next to my top tier customers (where operationally possible).

I'm not qualified to even run a fictional airline though.

So, there's that.

 

[JohnPhelan]

I was only lucky enough to fly Concorde a few times and the first time I wasn't a Frequent Flyer with any airline. I remember the stewardess (that was what they were called then) on the flight telling me about the BA frequent flyer program and it was in the magazine. I never joined as I didn't think I'd fly BA that often. I've still got my luggage tags form my flights. They were plastic and just said "Concorde" with the BA logo. No priority tags on that plane!!

What did you think of the Concorde overall? I only did one flight on Concorde and I certainly liked the speed (i.e. shorter flying time). But the experience onboard reminded me of the old DC9s - comparatively cramped seating and loud engine noise! To hold a conversation, we had to speak quite loudly.

Funniest thing - it was Air France - was the older woman who boarded after me with her white poodle on a leash! They sauntered down the aisle together with great French style!!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Concorde room equivalents such as the Melbourne lounge and the Sydney lounge maybe. or even the captains' club!! (the latter would settle union demands by telling them they have their own lounge now... just still with the restriction in granting them access!)

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I beg to differ.

Every fare on QF accrues points and SC's. WP Status is nothing more than accumulating the required number of sectors (4) and SC's (1400 to obtain and 1200 to maintain) It has no bearing on the value of the fare, the cabin flown or fare paid. Sure, you get there faster when these factors are taken into account, but thats about the extent of it.

Does QF distinguish between WP's who fly 2x per year in international F vs the red e deal shuttle flyer? The net result is the same, but the F flyer is much more "valuable" to QF.

I do agree with your last point, but its somewhat of a moot point. In paid F, Id expect a non status passenger to be treated in exactly the same way as a WP passenger, because you have paid for the privilege.

You can beg to differ, but there are many threads on this exact topic on who is perceived as the more valuable customer.. if anything it leant more towards the regular commuter.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

.....who is perceived as the more valuable customer.. if anything it leant more towards the regular commuter.

There is value and there is loyalty, and they are, by definition, two very different concepts which people struggle with - including QF.


But - ultimately - it's QF's decision how, what and to whom they provide benefits........

It's the individual flyer's decision as to whether QF's decisions in this regard result in them continuing to spend $$ with QF or going elsewhere.

 

[bossreggie]

What did you think of the Concorde overall? I only did one flight on Concorde and I certainly liked the speed (i.e. shorter flying time). But the experience onboard reminded me of the old DC9s - comparatively cramped seating and loud engine noise! To hold a conversation, we had to speak quite loudly.

Funniest thing - it was Air France - was the elderly woman who boarded after me with her white poodle on a leash! They sauntered down the aisle together with great French style!!

I agree it was noisier..... I didn't really get the feeling we were traveling faster than a normal plane except for take off and landing. (Though that may have been down to the louder noise)

It sure was small 2x2 and the seats themselves were quite narrow.

I have 2 enduring memories....... My first time onboard I was so desperate for the photo near the digital Mach Speedo at the front of the plane. I was seated about mid way down the cabin. I took my camera to the front and asked this fellow passenger to take my photo. She was very gracious and took a number of shots with my bulky SLR (pre digital). I thanked her and off handedly as I returned to my seat said I hope they turn out ok. She replied that she wasn't known for her photography. After I had sat down one of the stewardesses approached me and told me that I had just had my picture taken by Maya Angelou. I had no idea who she was at the time but I sure do now!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Angelou

The other distinct memory was that the photos I took when we were at cruising altitude actually showed the curve of the planet as the Concorde flew so much higher than a regular plane.


Sent from my iPad using AustFreqFly App

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What did you think of the Concorde overall? I only did one flight on Concorde and I certainly liked the speed (i.e. shorter flying time). But the experience onboard reminded me of the old DC9s - comparatively cramped seating and loud engine noise! To hold a conversation, we had to speak quite loudly.

Funniest thing - it was Air France - was the older woman who boarded after me with her white poodle on a leash! They sauntered down the aisle together with great French style!!

for me, Concorde bettered first class only by virtue of the 'glamour' of flying supersonic.

but as you say... narrow seats, shared armrests, no leg rooms, those poor passengers having to wait until half way across the Atlantic for their drinks (if farther back than about row 4)' so-so food...

it was lots of fun... but it certainly wasn't first class... more... err... supersonic class...

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

You can beg to differ, but there are many threads on this exact topic on who is perceived as the more valuable customer.. if anything it leant more towards the regular commuter.

Really? THat's odd. I'm pretty sure that we'd mostly agreed that it was premium pax providing the bulk of revenue (and profits) on legacy carriers. Profitability on those carriers suffered significantly during the GFC.

On a semi-related note:
According to Slide 26 of: http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111212/pdf/4236jzlv0gx8wc.pdf it seems the top 10% of QF fliers generate about 30% of revenue, and the top ~25% of business fliers generate about 60% of revenue. On the other hand, the ~40% of the Type C leisure travellers generate less than 20% of revenue. You have to spend a lot of time commuting to spend the sort of money that J and F tickets generate.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I beg to differ.

Every fare on QF accrues points and SC's. WP Status is nothing more than accumulating the required number of sectors (4) and SC's (1400 to obtain and 1200 to maintain) It has no bearing on the value of the fare, the cabin flown or fare paid. Sure, you get there faster when these factors are taken into account, but thats about the extent of it.
.

exactly my point. You are only differing with yourself on this.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Really? THat's odd. I'm pretty sure that we'd mostly agreed that it was premium pax providing the bulk of revenue (and profits) on legacy carriers. Profitability on those carriers suffered significantly during the GFC.

I don't recall that. when weighing up how someone attained their status, the person flying 2-3 in J to LHR compared to 30+ MEL-SYD, which do you think is better for QF? QF needs the Y bums in seats just as much as the J traveller. I know more people that have to fly Y for business than in J.

On a semi-related note:
According to Slide 26 of: http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111212/pdf/4236jzlv0gx8wc.pdf it seems the top 10% of QF fliers generate about 30% of revenue, and the top ~25% of business fliers generate about 60% of revenue. On the other hand, the ~40% of the Type C leisure travellers generate less than 20% of revenue. You have to spend a lot of time commuting to spend the sort of money that J and F tickets generate.

it may be me, but i didn't see a proper key to that diagram that showed whether the business travellers are in Y or J. and there are people commuting all the time that have a big spend too.

 

[straitman]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I beg to differ.

Every fare on QF accrues points and SC's. WP Status is nothing more than accumulating the required number of sectors (4) and SC's (1400 to obtain and 1200 to maintain) It has no bearing on the value of the fare, the cabin flown or fare paid. Sure, you get there faster when these factors are taken into account, but thats about the extent of it.

Does QF distinguish between WP's who fly 2x per year in international F vs the red e deal shuttle flyer? The net result is the same, but the F flyer is much more "valuable" to QF.

I do agree with your last point, but its somewhat of a moot point. In paid F, Id expect a non status passenger to be treated in exactly the same way as a WP passenger, because you have paid for the privilege.

You can beg to differ, but there are many threads on this exact topic on who is perceived as the more valuable customer.. if anything it leant more towards the regular commuter.

wilco,

Beg to differ as you may but you are incorrect.

Go and spend some time learning how airfares are managed and you may get a better understanding.

It's called 'Yield Management' if you don't already know :!:

 

[straitman]

I think I agree with the OP.

In the fictional world where I run an airline I would attempt to keep an empty seat next to my top tier customers (where operationally possible).

I'm not qualified to even run a fictional airline though.

So, there's that.

Think back many years and that is exactly how Kendell Airlines was run.

Don Kendell insisted that their aircraft be prepared to taxi with one seat vacant to accommodate the last minute businessman who was prepared to pay what ever for that seat. It was a model that actually succeeded extremely well.

See: Kendell Airlines.