Domestic Row 4/Row 23 and seating for WP Discussion

[nlagalle]

I was absolutely Pi$$ed off earlier this year as I was allocated 1K LHR-MEL instead of 1A. To many they would have seen that as very trivial. I like what I like and I'm prepared to pay for it. Ultimately I was given my usual seat but at the time I was annoyed.

But it was mentioned earlier, it's just a seat!

(excuse me while i wipe the sarcasm from my chin...)

 

[wilco]

Wilco you have been on AFF for 3 months.JohnK since 2005.Those who have been around since then have heard numerous tales of WPs getting upgrades and the platinum shadow.For what it is worth Johnk invariably misses out.It is indeed the "Days of our lives'segment of AFF.He is just being human seeing other people get perks that he with the same status misses out on.
What I dont understand is people who do not know johnk,who were not on the plane in question,can accuse him of spying,stalking,being demanding,conceited or stupid all of which you have done.I really cant understand how you think these are not negative statements.
As to BPs.As I have said many pax virtually shove them in your face or leave them on a tray table.i admit to looking at statusbut have never taken note of name or number.I really dont see what is wrong especially when on boarding the FA gives my name out to everyone in earshot.

Thats the nature of the beast i suppose.

I wasn't there, I didn't witness anything, but like everyone else, I form my view from the facts as they are presented. The only thing I "accused" JohnK of was spying on peoples BP's and questioning why it was so important to him to know what everyone else's status was. I never said he was demanding, not outwardly anyway, conceited or stupid. Im not in any way suggesting he behaved inappropriately on board (except regarding the BP's), causing a stink and complaining to the FA's that he didn't get "his" seat. But he is complaining here.
I think his notion of reality, in this particular instance, is a little warped and whilst I may not have been the nicest in saying so, IMO, the point still stands.

 

[wilco]

But it was mentioned earlier, it's just a seat!

IMO, if you pay the big bucks, you get what you want. In F, QF have 14 people at most to deal with and they can afford to pay particular attention to these high value customers.
In Y, there is 140 people and I'm sorry, but to expect the same level of service when you are paying 1% is unrealistic. You want the service, do as bossregie does and PAY FOR IT!

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

One small detail which you seem to have overlooked......

Cabin and Fare are required on a regular basis to have Status.


I haven't earned WP from being a once a year MEL-OOL leisure flyer.

The other thing is that cabin and fare are basically the same thing. Status and Fare is the trump card, as it should be. It is absolutely native to suggest that I, with my flexi flight booked at the last minute, should trump a CL on a red-e-deal. Or even a non-QFF member on a higher fare should trump a CL on a red-e-deal. I think the suggestion provides a guide for the weighting that should be given to the comments of the person who has made this suggestion.

 

[dfcatch]

believe me... it's not just jetstar.. its also business and economy passengers travelling on qantas (or any other one world airline)

it really is time there was a dedicated first class lounge... and the benefits that would bring including more $ for better champagnes and better food ingredients. more convenient access to showers during transit stops. no body pinching my daily mail at the singapore lounge. it's going to be even worse with an influx of golds with their free First class lounge passes.

first class lounge access based on status always reminds me of the fish market where a man was talking to a customer... while doing so a lobster crawled out of the $5 pot into the $10 pot. 'social climbers everywhere' the fishmonger remarked...

Actually - your argument is very poorly thought through.

If F lounges no longer granted access to WP's - you would find the real result would be smaller lounges (not less crowded ones), with less staff and they would probably resemble the ORD AA Flagship Lounge IMHO.

The SYD/MEL F lounges would not exist in their current form - and you would have 1 premium lounge in SYD which would resemble the T5 CCR - but that would be it.

As for SIN - the F lounge probably wouldn't even exist.

======================
Although as an F customer - you are very valuable to QF (on a single flight basis) - good on you for spending your (or someone's else's) $$$ with QF paying a high price premium and expecting top service for that price premium. And if you fly F regularly enough - you would no doubt be a WP1 - but god-forbid that you enjoy or take advantage of any status-related priveleges...... Better to do away with status and only have COS benefits... much purer.

Just as WP's - who have earned such WP status through Cabin and Fare requirements to do so - are also valuable to QF - hence the provision of benefits accordingly.


I take your argument - but it needs much more refining and I'm sure you see my flip-side to your argument at the same time

 

[MatF]

It's really starting to feel like it's time for this:

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Absolutely within the right of QF to do that......or any airline.

Just as it is within the right of me as a WP to switch and fly VA if I have the perception that they show me love as a status FF and QF don't.

I take your point - but you fall into the usual trap of confusing value vs loyalty - which I have argued about ad nauseum on other threads.

The shadow (and row 4 seating) is not a given right.

But to be honest - if I'm choosing my next domestic flight, as a self funded traveller - one of my main reasons for choosing QF is that I have a very high chance of getting row 4. On a 3 hour flight CNS-SYD, this makes a big difference to me.

And unless you are lending me your Diamond-studded, Triple-Platinum, Gold-encrusted Amex Super Centurian, then I can't afford Business Class.

There is a reason I choose to fly QF as a Platinum rather than save money and fly with JQ or VA. And comfort is one of them.

I know I'm not guaranteed row 4, but I usually do get it at T-80.

I know I'm not guaranteed a shadow - and I usually don't think I get one, but am lucky to have a WP in 4A who does have a shadow.

I am NOT a person who will suddenly cough up a J fare because I'm forced to by QF withdrawing the row 4 perk - instead - my response will be to fly VA.


Your AA argument is accurate - but not relevant here. No one is suggesting AA-style unlimited status upgrade to Business Class.

But your argument that people don't buy Business Class because they can get Row 4 is false IMO. There is no guarantee, and most FF's who can afford J (or are flying on someone's else's dime) will buy J.


And as far as International is concerned (which is my major concern when choosing a FF program) - I wish I could afford J more often but I can't.

QF is not the cheapest on transpacifics, and TBH - the fact that I can choose a bulkhead or 80A/K, is almost the ONLY reason I fly QF on my regular transpacific flights.

If I lost that ability to do so reliably - VA or DL or NZ would have me in a heartbeat.


So much for the argument that my response would be to cough up a J fare - nope - QF would instead lose my small but not insignificant revenue.

this all comes down to golden handcuffs!

the AA argument I think is valid... no one in the states gets upgrades to first class all the time... but they get them often enough I guess to makemit worthwhile for them to just buy a coach fare.

now if platinums were always guaranteed a shadow, provided there were 2 or 4 empty seats on a flight (so empty middle seats in row 4 and 5) then wouldn't you be less likely to shell out the extra dollars for business?

I know I would... I'd take my chances each time (provided I wasn't flying on the peak mel-syd-cbr routes at peak times).

I appreciate there has been an extensive discussion on loyalty vs value... but as a ticketed passenger, the ONLY thing status does for me is detract from the best experience possible by allowing status holders the same benefits as I have. there is not a single benefit given to me by gold or platinum that my fist class ticket doesn't get... all I do is suffer lower quality because more people are there to drink the champagne in the f lounge, or I have to balance my meal on my lap while some business class passenger is sitting at the table.

what did I do? I swapped to star alliance, because they offer a better first class experience. NO ONE except for first class and HON members (and if you have to endure 300,000 miles each year, or 600,000 miles over two years I'll take my hat off to you) gets access to my FCLs and FCTs.

what do I have in those lounges? nice cigar lounges (with sensible people who can look beyond more than complaining about political correctness of anti-smoking for two seconds in their life). I get beautiful restaurants, I get service that is intelligent and all about my travel experience.

lufthansa seems to value 'value' as well as loyalty.

(ok, while writing this, granted the one benefit I get is access to club lounges when flying first class n America... on a ticket that would not usually grant lounge access...)

 

[wilco]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

One small detail which you seem to have overlooked......
Cabin and Fare are required on a regular basis to have Status.
I haven't earned WP from being a once a year MEL-OOL leisure flyer.

I disagree....

Cabin and $$$$$ are what matters. The fare will be appropriate to the cabin. Its fair to say that F yield is greater than J which is greater than PE... I'm sure you get the picture.
Status is a by product of the cabin flown which itself determines (roughly) the fare that is paid.

IMO, a regular F flyer is much more valuable and important to QF than the once a week syd-mel red e deal shuttle flyer. Its all about the $$$ and not about the status. Status (can be) cheap, First class is not!

 

[nlagalle]

IMO, if you pay the big bucks, you get what you want. In F, QF have 14 people at most to deal with and they can afford to pay particular attention to these high value customers.
In Y, there is 140 people and I'm sorry, but to expect the same level of service when you are paying 1% is unrealistic. You want the service, do as bossregie does and PAY FOR IT!

So does spending the big bucks apply to the other 13 F pax as well? Are they worth less? You'll see then that his status will play the major part in getting the seat he wants. As you said, it's just a seat. To others it isn't.

I've not mentioned service anywhere.. But as a WP I expect better seat selection than others as it is a stated benefit.

 

[medhead]

Thats the nature of the beast i suppose.

I wasn't there, I didn't witness anything, but like everyone else, I form my view from the facts as they are presented. The only thing I "accused" JohnK of was spying on peoples BP's and questioning why it was so important to him to know what everyone else's status was.

There is absolutely no place here for making any such accusations. Many people are pointing out why the accusation is wrong. Take the message.

IMO, if you pay the big bucks, you get what you want. In F, QF have 14 people at most to deal with and they can afford to pay particular attention to these high value customers.
In Y, there is 140 people and I'm sorry, but to expect the same level of service when you are paying 1% is unrealistic. You want the service, do as bossregie does and PAY FOR IT!

No one has said anything about getting F service when flying Y. The thread would be a lot better if people didn't just make up falsehoods.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I disagree....

Cabin and $$$$$ are what matters. The fare will be appropriate to the cabin. Its fair to say that F yield is greater than J which is greater than PE... I'm sure you get the picture.
Status is a by product of the cabin flown which itself determines (roughly) the fare that is paid.

IMO, a regular F flyer is much more valuable and important to QF than the once a week syd-mel red e deal shuttle flyer. Its all about the $$$ and not about the status. Status (can be) cheap, First class is not!

By definition - a regular F class flyer will have status.

God forbid they use those status privileges if they ever fly a non-premium cabin.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I disagree....

Cabin and $$$$$ are what matters. The fare will be appropriate to the cabin. Its fair to say that F yield is greater than J which is greater than PE... I'm sure you get the picture.
Status is a by product of the cabin flown which itself determines (roughly) the fare that is paid.

It seems obvious that you don't really understand how status is calculated. Status is the over all measure of value that takes into account cabin and fare paid. Status is what is important in combination with fare paid.

 

[bossreggie]

I appreciate there has been an extensive discussion on loyalty vs value... but as a ticketed passenger, the ONLY thing status does for me is detract from the best experience possible by allowing status holders the same benefits as I have. there is not a single benefit given to me by gold or platinum that my fist class ticket doesn't get... all I do is suffer lower quality because more people are there to drink the champagne in the f lounge, or I have to balance my meal on my lap while some business class passenger is sitting at the table.

I may not fly F as much as you, (I'm only around 30-40 F flights per year) but I have NEVER had to balance a meal on my lap in the F Lounge! When you are called the day prior to your flight to book a treatment etc, tell them then that you intend to have a meal. That's what the "reserved" signs are for!! It's like a restaurant.... They have table numbers too. Ask for it next time and then you should be able to book at a suitable time AND at your favourite table.

Qantas offers me no F cabin trans Tasman. I make that journey maybe 20 time a year, always in J and usually with at least one other person. By my reckoning I spend around $100k per annum just on that! If I was unable to use the F Lounge then I'd fly EK or NZ trans Tasman.

I have no problems with people flying Y, or Deathstar using the F Lounge. EVERY person in that lounge has earned/paid for the right to be there, or is the guest of someone who has.

Whilst the status of my cabin, or indeed my frequent flyer profile may be higher than most in the lounge..... My status as a fellow human being is no higher than any other, NOR do i act as though it is!! Those of you who know me would probably agree I'm a pretty down to earth guy.

If overcrowding ever became an issue then maybe they could then re-assess the entry requirements.


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[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

It seems obvious that you don't really understand how status is calculated. Status is the over all measure of value that takes into account cabin and fare paid. Status is what is important in combination with fare paid.

not always... there are CLs out there that don't fly qantas. I know some of them.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

not always... there are CLs out there that don't fly qantas. I know some of them.

well yes one exception, but it proves my point. Their status is a measure of their value to qantas (controlling $millions of airfare spend) and it is vastly more important than the cabin travelled or fare paid ($0 :?

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

not always... there are CLs out there that don't fly qantas. I know some of them.

Agreed - but QF has determined in its all-knowing all-powerful wisdom from above that these individuals represent enough value to QF to gift them CL status.

If they one-day fail to continue to represent that value - I'm confident that the QF Gods shall fail to renew such blessed endowment.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

not always... there are CLs out there that don't fly qantas. I know some of them.

You also can't earn CL status from flying either....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I may not fly F as much as you, (I'm only around 30-40 F flights per year) but I have NEVER had to balance a meal on my lap in the F Lounge! When you are called the day prior to your flight to book a treatment etc, tell them then that you intend to have a meal. That's what the "reserved" signs are for!! It's like a restaurant.... They have table numbers too. Ask for it next time and then you should be able to book at a suitable time AND at your favourite table.

Qantas offers me no F cabin trans Tasman. I make that journey maybe 20 time a year, always in J and usually with at least one other person. By my reckoning I spend around $100k per annum just on that! If I was unable to use the F Lounge then I'd fly EK or NZ trans Tasman.

I have no problems with people flying Y, or Deathstar using the F Lounge. EVERY person in that lounge has earned/paid for the right to be there, or is the guest of someone who has.

Whilst the status of my cabin, or indeed my frequent flyer profile may be higher than most in the lounge..... My status as a fellow human being is no higher than any other, NOR do i act as though it is!! Those of you who know me would probably agree I'm a pretty down to earth guy.

If overcrowding ever became an issue then maybe they could then re-assess the entry requirements.


Sent from my iPad using AustFreqFly App

I didn't know that you could reserve a table!

however... is that really appropriate? I don't have to reserve a table in the lufthansa lounge. would not the better option be for qantas to reserve tables for all first class passengers and enquire on arrival if they wish to use them? little differences like that set airlines apart.

I fly first class because i want privacy. for me, there would be no choice between EK with an F cabin or QF with business... this is not a case of feeling superior, just a personal problem where I am uncomfortable being in a situation with strangers (particularly situations where I might have to engage in conversation).

 

[bossreggie]

I didn't know that you could reserve a table!

however... is that really appropriate? I don't have to reserve a table in the lufthansa lounge. would not the better option be for qantas to reserve tables for all first class passengers and enquire on arrival if they wish to use them? little differences like that set airlines apart.

I fly first class because i want privacy. for me, there would be no choice between EK with an F cabin or QF with business... this is not a case of feeling superior, just a personal problem where I am uncomfortable being in a situation with strangers (particularly situations where I might have to engage in conversation).

It's ONLY first class passengers who can reserve a table the day before flying. I'm such a creature of habit that my table is always reserved when I am flying. I also have a "shadow" table as I don't like someone sitting right next to me!! Lol

I like privacy too. I guess I am pretty easy going as long as long haul I fly F and get seat 1A. Trans Tasman I take 1C and I haven't had a stranger in 1A ever!!

I also don't engage in conversation with fellow passengers. I'm genuinely not that interested!! I won't ever ignore someone..... But I don't have conversations.




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[wilco]

So does spending the big bucks apply to the other 13 F pax as well? Are they worth less? You'll see then that his status will play the major part in getting the seat he wants. As you said, it's just a seat. To others it isn't.

I've not mentioned service anywhere.. But as a WP I expect better seat selection than others as it is a stated benefit.

The key word here is "selection". JohnK did select his preferred seat but due to matters out of his control and probably Qantas's, it could not be honoured, but the stated benefit of "seat selection" was provided. Im not sure what more anyone could want or expect??