Domestic Row 4/Row 23 and seating for WP Discussion

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I don't recall that. when weighing up how someone attained their status, the person flying 2-3 in J to LHR compared to 30+ MEL-SYD, which do you think is better for QF? QF needs the Y bums in seats just as much as the J traveller. I know more people that have to fly Y for business than in J.

This is a very interesting point. Take a 737 flying between ADL-SYD there are 12 J seats that are sold for $829, There are 156 seats that are sold for a range of prices between $139 and $500-ish. Lets say a very low average of $150 per Y seat.

If full Qantas gets the following cash:

• J $9948 - This is the maximum
• Y $23400 - This can be much more using a realistic average fare paid

J might be nice icing, but that aircraft would be flying for long if those Y seats aren't filled. I have no idea which passenger is more valuable but I do know that Qantas measures that value by the use of status (and no doubt along with some other factors - PCV anyone)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Think back many years and that is exactly how Kendell Airlines was run.

Don Kendell insisted that their aircraft be prepared to taxi with one seat vacant to accommodate the last minute businessman who was prepared to pay what ever for that seat. It was a model that actually succeeded extremely well.

See: Kendell Airlines.

I thought this was also the same for American Airlines (AA) keeping 2 first class seats free until last minute for this purpose. on most aircraft these are 6AB, and e subject of extremely keen interest amongst those on the upgrade list! (I have in fact benefitted more than once)

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

I don't recall that. when weighing up how someone attained their status, the person flying 2-3 in J to LHR compared to 30+ MEL-SYD, which do you think is better for QF? QF needs the Y bums in seats just as much as the J traveller.

I did a quick check, and I've thrown $6k-$8k the past few months to QF for SIN-SYD travel (W or J depending on fares, trip times etc). You need to commute a lot in Y (at $1.5k per rt) to spend that money. You need to commute a lot between SYD and MEL to generate the same revenue as a single F SYD-LHR return pax (let alone profit).

Whilst Y bums-on-seats fills planes and generates revenue, QF depends more on the premium cabins, just like any other full service legacy carrier.

it may be me, but i didn't see a proper key to that diagram that showed whether the business travellers are in Y or J. and there are people commuting all the time that have a big spend too.

It just makes the point that the top 10% of pax generate about 30% of the revenue. That could be a guy that spends $48k on 4 F SYD-LHR tickets, or a guy that flies SYD-MEL 200 times. Commuters can spend a lot of money, but you need to travel a fair bit in Y to generate the same revenue as J/F fliers, if you're not travelling on flexible Y tickets.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

This is a very interesting point. Take a 737 flying between ADL-SYD there are 12 J seats that are sold for $829, There are 156 seats that are sold for a range of prices between $139 and $500-ish. Lets say a very low average of $150 per Y seat.

If full Qantas gets the following cash:

• J $9948 - This is the maximum
• Y $23400 - This can be much more using a realistic average fare paid

J might be nice icing, but that aircraft would be flying for long if those Y seats aren't filled. I have no idea which passenger is more valuable but I do know that Qantas measures that value by the use of status (and no doubt along with some other factors - PCV anyone)

The aircraft wouldn't be flying without the J pax (and Flex Y pax) either - it would become a Jetstar route. Once the door closes, the revenue-cost per pax gives a higher number for the people on expensive fares, compared to those on cheap fares. It's that simple.

Airlines that provide all-economy service tend to look like Jetstar, RyanAir, EasyJet, AirAsia etc. And there there are other airlines that seem to depend on their F/J pax. If they could be so profitable on Y pax alone, why aren't there are quite a few of these airlines around?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

This is a very interesting point. Take a 737 flying between ADL-SYD there are 12 J seats that are sold for $829, There are 156 seats that are sold for a range of prices between $139 and $500-ish. Lets say a very low average of $150 per Y seat.

If full Qantas gets the following cash:

• J $9948 - This is the maximum
• Y $23400 - This can be much more using a realistic average fare paid

J might be nice icing, but that aircraft would be flying for long if those Y seats aren't filled. I have no idea which passenger is more valuable but I do know that Qantas measures that value by the use of status (and no doubt along with some other factors - PCV anyone)

except that on international flights it's a completely different story where there are huge numbers of premium seats and economy really is just a bit of icing.

taking you example above, but changing that to a 767 with 30 biz class seat changes the mix a fair bit.

I would have thought that airlines increasing their business cabins... sq operates all biz a345s, and all upper deck biz class a380s, and there are now many many all business class flights for other airlines operated by the likes of private air.... suggests that airlines value $$ over numbers.

of course freight is important... so we have nice big 747s flying around, so mig as well top those off with some economy passengers. but given I can assure you that when qantas weight limits it's 747s out of dallas that it ain't premium passengers that are going to be left behind. those that paid more are simply more valuable to the airline. if it was a choice between a platinum in Y, or a business class passenger, who would qantas leave behind at Dallas?

 

[Moody]

Is it due to a late 767 to 737 substitution? A aisle 'B' seat on the 767 stays a 'B' seat on the 737?

I've been in an exit row 738 (with a BP printed) when it was subbed to a 734 and I lost the exit row.

Qantas could look into doing some changes on how seats are re-mapped due to aircraft substitution.

I've given up on exit row seats due to my last trip. It was a Sydney/Brisbane return trip, and 3 weeks out (when booked) I saw that I could pick an aisle exit row seat on both legs, but the forward aisle seats we unavailable (I am Au). I'll grab those now and then recheck at T-80 to see if I can move up to the front, I thought. Only I didn't and so when it came to OLCI the forward cabins were chockers both ways and so I left myself in the exit rows.

Of course this meant I had to queue up (briefly) at the QC to get my boarding pass and agree that I was up to the task. Then I get on the 737 on the first leg to find that I am sitting behind the 2 exit rows, presumably due to an aircraft substitution. That didn't bother me too much, but when waiting for all the disorganised pax in rows 1-12 to get their bags and get off the plane I started grinding my teeth.

Then on the return journey the next day it happened again! I was on a 767 this time in row 35 or something, and again this was behind the real exit row. I was in the middle section which is off-set to the seats near the fuselage which are truly exit row, so Qantas needs to update its cabin diagrams.

Since I hadn't paid for the seats I have no particular redress to Qantas, but I won't be bothering with that tosh again!

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

The aircraft wouldn't be flying without the J pax (and Flex Y pax) either - it would become a Jetstar route. Once the door closes, the revenue-cost per pax gives a higher number for the people on expensive fares, compared to those on cheap fares. It's that simple.

Airlines that provide all-economy service tend to look like Jetstar, RyanAir, EasyJet, AirAsia etc. And there there are other airlines that seem to depend on their F/J pax. If they could be so profitable on Y pax alone, why aren't there are quite a few of these airlines around?

Have another read, I didn't say anything about profitability. The opposite in fact. What is simple is that a full Y cabin keeps the aircraft in the air and a full J cabin is less important (but note I'm not saying unimportant) and if we do the sums with more flex Y contribution, Y becomes even more important.

except that on international flights it's a completely different story where there are huge numbers of premium seats and economy really is just a bit of icing.

Of course, rightly or wrongly, this thread started off about domestic flights.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Really? THat's odd. I'm pretty sure that we'd mostly agreed that it was premium pax providing the bulk of revenue (and profits) on legacy carriers. Profitability on those carriers suffered significantly during the GFC.

On a semi-related note:
According to Slide 26 of: http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20111212/pdf/4236jzlv0gx8wc.pdf it seems the top 10% of QF fliers generate about 30% of revenue, and the top ~25% of business fliers generate about 60% of revenue. On the other hand, the ~40% of the Type C leisure travellers generate less than 20% of revenue. You have to spend a lot of time commuting to spend the sort of money that J and F tickets generate.

I think you miss the point - your quote says it all...

"top 10%", "top 25%"......

To get in the top 10% or top 25% you have to travel regularly...... travelling regularly, particularly in premium classes, makes you a status FF.....

If you are a status FF flying Y all the time - then you are no doubt still contributing a comparable amount to the J flyer who is still only earning as many SC's as you are.

SC earn (on QF flights) is a more accurate measure (as would be raw $ in annual total).

But on a singular flight basis - I'm sorry - the status FF in Economy is more valuable and loyal than the once-off J flyer.

 

[drron]

I thought this was also the same for American Airlines (AA) keeping 2 first class seats free until last minute for this purpose. on most aircraft these are 6AB, and e subject of extremely keen interest amongst those on the upgrade list! (I have in fact benefitted more than once)

Might have in the past but last month i flew 4 domestic AA sectors on an 081 ticket and QF allocated us 6A,B on 3/4 sectors-so now you could call them QF seats.The aircraft were -757,737 and 2x MD80.On the 757 it was 6E,F(no 6A,B).

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Have another read, I didn't say anything about profitability. The opposite in fact. What is simple is that a full Y cabin keeps the aircraft in the air and a full J cabin is less important (but note I'm not saying unimportant) and if we do the sums with more flex Y contribution, Y becomes even more important.

Revenue does not keep planes in the air. Profitability does.

Whilst the entire Y cabin (with 156 pax) generates more revenue than the J cabin (12 pax), the average profitability per pax is much higher for the J pax. If the J pax weren't there, the route would become a Jetstar route - we've seen empirical evidence for this many times.

As stated, if full-service Y airlines was a profitable venture, I'm surprised that there aren't a bunch of major airlines offering this. So, it's mostly likely not a profitable business plan.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Have another read, I didn't say anything about profitability. The opposite in fact. What is simple is that a full Y cabin keeps the aircraft in the air and a full J cabin is less important (but note I'm not saying unimportant) and if we do the sums with more flex Y contribution, Y becomes even more important.



Of course, rightly or wrongly, this thread started off about domestic flights.

but change your example to a 767 and the maths are just completely opposite. 30J generates $24,800 where as the 224Y generate $33,600. full j cabin seems to trump.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

But on a singular flight basis - I'm sorry - the status FF in Economy is more valuable and loyal than the once-off J flyer.

Well, we aren't talking about loyalty - we're talking about value pax.

There are a lot of one-off flyers in both J and Y. It seems the vast bulk of pax (Leisure C) contribute very little - I assume they are infrequent Y flyers, who are price sensitive (and whom QANTAS would love to shunt to Jetstar). The one-off J flyer would be far more valuable than the one-off Y flyer in this case.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Well, we aren't talking about loyalty - we're talking about value pax.

There are a lot of one-off flyers in both J and Y. It seems the vast bulk of pax (Leisure C) contribute very little - I assume they are infrequent Y flyers, who are price sensitive (and whom QANTAS would love to shunt to Jetstar). The one-off J flyer would be far more valuable than the one-off Y flyer in this case.

Yes
yes
yes
yes
yes

and

YES!

But this thread is talking about the benefits provided or not provided to Status Pax - who by definition, regardless of how they earned the necessary SCs, have done so and are therefore both valuable and loyal to QF.

So we are talking about loyalty.

It's about investing in passenger loyalty in order to extract the most long-term value from each customer.

 

[awilcockson]

I think we need a new version of Goodwin's law, except rather than declaring a thread finished when someone get's compared to the naz_s, declare the thread closed when it degrades into an argument over yield management.

fwiw, a very good source tells me that the airlines make much more out of the cargo on each flight than they do out of the paying PAX.

 

[bossreggie]

This is spooky..... Thread was created as the original thread had gone waaaaaaaaaaay off topic.

Seems to me now this thread has too!!

It's almost like a pi$$ing contest here.

In a perfect world we would ALL be as valuable as each other to the airline. It isn't perfect.

Looking at this from MY perspective..... If I'm being totally honest... I DESERVE to be treated a little better than most pax. It has NOTHING to do with me BEING any better.... It's a commercial decision. I'm worth a lot of revenue to the airline. It's that simple. I don't ever do the DYKWIA stuff that I get to see on a regular basis.

But guess what..... Despite the MILLIONS of $$$ I have spent with QANTAS over the years.... When my brother died suddenly a couple of years ago.... It wasn't Qantas who was offering condolences or running round after me. (Despite the fact he died in WA and I spent around $400K in 1 day getting people to and from Perth) The lady who owns the coffee shop near where my office used to be... She was the one doing all she could. Her and her husband even offered to drive me to the airport.

We are ALL really of NO major significance when all is said and done. NOT to an airline or a major corporation..... But we ARE to those we interact with on a personal level.

Try and keep things in perspective. It's a short life.... But it's the longest thing we will ever do. Your Coutts & Co/Centurian/Platinum/Gold/Bronze card/status won't mean a thing when all is said and done.

bossreggie...... rant over!!

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Yes
But this thread is talking about the benefits provided or not provided to Status Pax - who by definition, regardless of how they earned the necessary SCs, have done so and are therefore both valuable and loyal to QF.

I have responded to that point: JohnK got access to a preferred seat. And he got from A-B. Seems he got everything that status pax are entitled to for the fare paid.

If you read the specific post I replied to that started this discussion, you will see that it's not about status per se, but whether Y or J pax are more important.

 

[medhead]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Revenue does not keep planes in the air. Profitability does.

Whilst the entire Y cabin (with 156 pax) generates more revenue than the J cabin (12 pax), the average profitability per pax is much higher for the J pax. If the J pax weren't there, the route would become a Jetstar route - we've seen empirical evidence for this many times.

As stated, if full-service Y airlines was a profitable venture, I'm surprised that there aren't a bunch of major airlines offering this. So, it's mostly likely not a profitable business plan.

I fail to see how you can make any claims about profitability, do share the basis for your opinion so that we can measure its validity. Until then revenue is an appropriate measure to make my point that BOTH passengers are needed. If you bothered to read what I wrote you will see that I made no claim as to which cabin was more profitable, only made the point that without the Y passengers there is no J cabin. It is simple and relevant point.

The other thing you'll find is that your full service Y airline is a crude distraction for this point. At no stage did I suggest that there should be a full service Y airline. Why keep bringing up a complete furphy? But it is simple enough to say that you line of reasoning about this is false. 18 full flexi Y passengers in my example have revenue of $9000. On a mid morning snack flight the level of food offered to those 18 Y passengers costs a fraction of the J food offering. So those 18 Y passengers will be at least as profitable as the equivalent 12 J passengers.

Given Jetstar's focus on value add purchases, 28% of revenue from these sources, it could be argued that they offer a full service Y airline. The only thing being that passengers can choose how much full service they purchase.

but change your example to a 767 and the maths are just completely opposite. 30J generates $24,800 where as the 224Y generate $33,600. full j cabin seems to trump.

Last time I checked 33 was > 24. Factor in a realistic yield on those Y seats, instead of my very low guessimate, and then redo the calculation.

 

[medhead]

Well, we aren't talking about loyalty - we're talking about value pax.

And people are saying that the loyal pax is valuable

In a perfect world we would ALL be as valuable as each other to the airline. It isn't perfect.

I think if we consider the revenue we are all as valuable as each other.* cargo aside.




* Not sure why others are trying to distract from that point.

 

[amaroo]

I like heading down the back - most are better looking down there

 

[TheInsider]

Re: Qantas thanks its most loyal customers

Well, we aren't talking about loyalty - we're talking about value pax.

There are a lot of one-off flyers in both J and Y. It seems the vast bulk of pax (Leisure C) contribute very little - I assume they are infrequent Y flyers, who are price sensitive (and whom QANTAS would love to shunt to Jetstar). The one-off J flyer would be far more valuable than the one-off Y flyer in this case.

Might be something of interest: