Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[ermen]

The biggest myth about the AB is that the computer limits the pilots from doing what they might need to do. Yes there are limits, but they are sufficiently remote that the chances of you ever hitting them, much less needing to exceed them, are negligible.

seems like here it was the boeing computer that prevented the pilots from doing what they needed to do!
tragic, really tragic loss of life

 

[oz_mark]

Not just Boeing. Lots of people just dismissed the first crash as a LionAir training issue....

Indeed.. And even in the immediate aftermath of the Ethiopean crash, we had the FAA issue Continued Airworthiness Notification. We had Boeing and various airlines saying they had full confidence in the aircraft. I wonder on what basis all these claims were being made.

Boeing and the FAA have much to answer for.

 

[amaroo]

wonder which airline this is?
should boycott them.

what a farce with airlines pushing boeing to come up with this sort of cough without proper training, and the FAA complying

Greed has overridden everything - it happens in all industries, but I suppose some would be surprised it's been exposed in the airline game.

Interesting to see what penalties will be dished out .... I'm betting bugger all.

 

[Quickstatus]

MCAS trims the stabiliser electrically. The pilots also had an electric trim switch on yoke.

Any trim activity is visible. Why didn’t the pilots kept electrically trimming nose up when it was obvious at end that aircraft was severely nose down (after Stab trim cutoff switch turned back on)?

 

[pauly7]

Greed has overridden everything - it happens in all industries, but I suppose some would be surprised it's been exposed in the airline game.

Interesting to see what penalties will be dished out .... I'm betting bugger all.

The law suits will probably be more interesting to watch than the penalties or lack thereof...

 

[Berlin]

Seems the "fix" is progressing

Boeing conducts 737 MAX test flight with chief executive on board

Wow. I am really amazed at the awful awful PR Boeing is continuing to do here. They really still haven’t gotten the message, have they?

I wonder how many more people have to die still due to this fundamentally flawed aircraft design. Suspect that it will only be seriously tackled if it hits a US carrier next time.

 

[juddles]

Greed has overridden everything - it happens in all industries, but I suppose some would be surprised it's been exposed in the airline game.

Interesting to see what penalties will be dished out .... I'm betting bugger all......

Forgive me, but using the term "greed' is IMHO not correct. The airline industry is about trying to survive in a cutthroat industry. Extremely competitive game.

The underlying issue is the ability and preference of most travelers to book on online price and price alone. Fundamentally this whole series of factors of commercial pressures is due to pax pressure, not "greed".

 

[Berlin]

The underlying issue is the ability and preference of most travelers to book on online price and price alone. Fundamentally this whole series of factors of commercial pressures is due to pax pressure, not "greed".

Having (quite unfortunately) worked in big multi-national corporations all my life, I would actually say it’s both: They’re definitely all greedy and by definition have to be in a capitalist system as they’d otherwise do wrong to their shareholders.

But what you raise by “pax pressure” is of course true as well (and, ironically, often the biggest spending “pax” are actually funded by- corporates, who have to be stingy by design as they otherwise do wrong to their shareholders and so on it goes...).

But this sadly true in many other industries as well and creates nasty trends like “Fast Fashion” which knowingly exploits third world labour so that clothes can be so cheap that we can just throw them out after a few weeks and buy new ones. And there’s endless other examples of course, this was just the first that came to mind.

 

[Berlin]

For me as an interested layman, reading about this case makes me learn A LOT about the physics and engeneering of aircraft. And the more I read the more I understand while also getting confused about things.

In this spirit, I found this article particularly enlightening (after reading it twice to half way understatand it) and the graphics help me immensely, actually:

Vestigial design issue clouds 737 Max crash investigations

 

[codash1099]

Forgive me, but using the term "greed' is IMHO not correct. The airline industry is about trying to survive in a cutthroat industry. Extremely competitive game.

The underlying issue is the ability and preference of most travelers to book on online price and price alone. Fundamentally this whole series of factors of commercial pressures is due to pax pressure, not "greed".

Travellers certainly want to choose the lowest price, but there is no compulsion on airlines to offer prices that are inconsistent with safety and comfort.

 

[amaroo]

Forgive me, but using the term "greed' is IMHO not correct. The airline industry is about trying to survive in a cutthroat industry. Extremely competitive game.

The underlying issue is the ability and preference of most travelers to book on online price and price alone. Fundamentally this whole series of factors of commercial pressures is due to pax pressure, not "greed".

So it's the passengers fault....

 

[juddles]

Travellers certainly want to choose the lowest price, but there is no compulsion on airlines to offer prices that are inconsistent with safety and comfort.

Not sure that is true. To stay in the game costs are cut at all levels. In the present discussion I find it amazing that pilots just had a "video tutorial" to adjust form earlier versions to the 737 MAX. Seems almost incomprehensible. But at the end of the day, airlines have to offer prices (ie overall cost structures) that are the absolute minimum. It all comes down to what pax pay, and I see no way of pax being able to pay for safer procedures.

 

[docjames]

Message from Boeing CEO (sent via email direct to subscribers too):

Boeing: 737 MAX Update

 

[Quickstatus]

Travellers certainly want to choose the lowest price, but there is no compulsion on airlines to offer prices that are inconsistent with safety and comfort.

That’s why there are regulators like the FAA who are supposed to be independent. However they are increasingly operating like the “private certifiers” of the building industry here in OZ who rely on ongoing referrals from the building industry for their income and so they know which side of the bread is buttered.

Where there are regulators, there are politicians who also know which side of their bread is buttered and who then set budgets for the regulators.

I’ll bet that the FAA is under resourced as are most regulators

 

[OATEK]

Message from Boeing CEO (sent via email direct to subscribers too):

Boeing: 737 MAX Update

Quote: Flight crews will always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane.

So a new feature will be added presumably as it is obvious that pilots did not have that ability in the aircraft involved in the two crashes.

 

[Quickstatus]

I think they do - it’s the manual electric trim switch on the yoke. The operation overrides MCAS trim activity.

 

[oz_mark]

It all comes down to what pax pay, and I see no way of pax being able to pay for safer procedures.

Boeing screwed up, and have been playing a deflect the blame game. The Pax are in no way, shape or form responsible for that.

I think they do - it’s the manual electric trim switch on the yoke. The operation overrides MCAS trim activity.

Although it would seem that recovering from a erroneous MCAS activation is not as easy as Boeing made it out to be.

 

[Quickstatus]

Boeing didn’t prescribe how to recover from erroneous MCAS activation - only how to stop it. Recovery is a pilot activity. Boeing doesn’t tell the pilots how to fly

Turning off Stabiliser trim cutoff switches and “Grasp and hold” does not return the aircraft to a stable attitude

 

[oz_mark]

Boeing didn’t prescribe how to recover from erroneous MCAS activation - only how to stop it. Recovery is a pilot activity. Boeing doesn’t tell the pilots how to fly

Turning off Stabiliser trim cutoff switches and “Grasp and hold” does not return the aircraft to a stable attitude

Then how should the pilots have responded to the situation they were given by a faulty Boeing designed system?

 

[Quickstatus]

The definitive “pilot guide” will come out soon enough and airlines will need to rewrite the SOP.

Sadly pilots were not told that the MAX was a dynamically unstable aircraft with a hidden Easter Egg - they had to find out the hard way - by dying.

But essentially:
1) recognise early and turn off Stab cut off switch and manually trim at the trim wheel until aircraft lands - and don’t turn on the cutoff switch

2)recognise early, correct the trim electrically at yoke every time electric trim activates to push nose down. When too many corrections do 1)

3) recognise early and do 2). As soon as trim corrected, turn off Stab cut off switch

4) recognise late - “grasp and hold” and crash so other pilots can learn from the FDR/CVR