Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[OATEK]

The definitive “pilot guide” will come out soon enough and airlines will need to rewrite the SOP.

Sadly pilots were not told that the MAX was a dynamically unstable aircraft with a hidden Easter Egg - they had to find out the hard way - by dying.

But essentially:
1) recognise early and turn off Stab cut off switch and manually trim at the trim wheel until aircraft lands - and don’t turn on the cutoff switch

2)recognise early, correct the trim electrically at yoke every time electric trim activates to push nose down. When too many corrections do 1)

3) recognise early and do 2). As soon as trim corrected, turn off Stab cut off switch

4) recognise late - “grasp and hold” and crash so other pilots can learn from the FDR/CVR

Maybe.....

 

[Quickstatus]

And the MAX simulator cannot simulate an erroneous MCAS activation (I think). That will need to be written in. Until then it can’t be simulated and pilot experience is effectively zero

Only 7 pilots had direct experience flying a MAX with erroneous MCAS activation -the 4 who died and the 3 who survived)

 

[JB expat]

Boeing's Homicides Will Give Way to Safety Reforms if Flyers Organize | Ralph Nader

 

[JB expat]

Wow. I am really amazed at the awful awful PR Boeing is continuing to do here. They really still haven’t gotten the message, have they?

I wonder how many more people have to die still due to this fundamentally flawed aircraft design. Suspect that it will only be seriously tackled if it hits a US carrier next time.

It is a flawed design (in my opinion). Frankly, doesn’t even matter if I’m right or wrong. I’m not an aviation expert. I am a typical flyer (although less price sensitive and more picky than many). If the public’s perception is that Boeing a dangerous plane/flawed design, people will go out of their way not to book flights on this plane. So then either Max8’s become their own type of low cost carrier or airlines stop ordering them and flying them.

Exhibit A: posting his from my American Airlines seat midflight. This flight is my replacement for my Air Canada flight that was on a Max 8. Even if the Max8 is re-certified, I’d rather take an indirect flight with a change (as we just did) than a direct flight on a Max 8.

 

[Berlin]

I am a typical flyer (although less price sensitive and more picky than many).

That makes us the two who appreciate quality (and safety) over a few bucks saving. But I also still think there’s more like us around than people think. It’s essentially the classic two business models and they both can (or cannot) work:

You either do mass or you do class. Lion Air (and the likes)= lots and lots of cheap tickets, close to zero services (and counting on many of the cheapskapes to be gullible and in the end paying through the nose for otherwise included ‘services’).

Qantas, AA, SIA and so on in Premium Eco or higher: You sell less seats in total, but these are much higher value and margin but in return you offer better and usually more personalised service.

Not at all that different as comparing a Macca’s to a high end table service hipster burger restaurant (though admittedly, in this case I personally would probably go for the tried and trusted Big Mac...).

 

[jakeseven7]

Is there any updated official comment from Virgin Australia or are they still playing wait and see?

Some other operators have already made decisions.

 

[oz_mark]

Is there any updated official comment from Virgin Australia or are they still playing wait and see?

Some other operators have already made decisions.

AFAIK, nothing other than their wait and see statement a few weeks back

Safety is Virgin Australia's number one priority.

Virgin Australia will not introduce any new aircraft to the fleet unless we are completely satisfied with its safety.

There are currently no Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft in our fleet.

We are closely monitoring the situation and will continue to work with Boeing, CASA, and other relevant authorities as more information becomes available.

Virgin Australia statement on Boeing 737 MAX 8s

 

[Berlin]

Some other operators have already made decisions.

Yea, like Lufthansa who have decided that now is the perfect moment to shop around for some 737 Max airplanes as they’ll go at a good discount. So I’ve heard

 

[juddles]

Each to their own, but I for one will never ever fly on a 787 MAX. The crashes were caused by software, but this in turn was developed to try to control (IMHO) an unbalanced airframe. No matter how many software fixes they try to apply, this airframe (even if they rebadge it) will be off limits to me.

 

[Jacques Vert]

Each to their own, but I for one will never ever fly on a 787 MAX. The crashes were caused by software, but this in turn was developed to try to control (IMHO) an unbalanced airframe. No matter how many software fixes they try to apply, this airframe (even if they rebadge it) will be off limits to me.

You mean 737 MAX

 

[juddles]

You mean 737 MAX

Yes, sorry, I actually adore the 787

 

[oz_mark]

Yes, sorry, I actually adore the 787

Even if it had a propensity to catch on fire in the early days

 

[juddles]

Even if it had a propensity to catch on fire in the early days

I prefer a whiff of smoke to a 500 knot collision with the Earth any day :0

 

[OATEK]

I'm with @juddles - no 737MAX for Mr & Mrs Oatek.

 

[Quickstatus]

How do we know if any of the Airbus or any other passenger aircraft currently in service for that matter are inherently unbalanced/unstable?

 

[oz_mark]

How do we know if any of the Airbus are inherently unbalanced/unstable?

As passengers, we don't know what happens in any aircraft,

What we do know, is that a fairly recently produced variant of an aircraft has had two instances of aircraft sending themselves earthward. You'd be struggling to find another aircraft that has that record.

 

[Berlin]

I'm with @juddles - no 737MAX for Mr & Mrs Oatek.

Count me in as well, no way! The only issue I see is that once “everything is sorted” (or so they will eventually say), one might just end up on one due to last minute “equipment changes” whether you had planned it or not.

Something tells me that first time this happening to me will be on some random Domestic flight on AA.

 

[eastwest101]

As passengers, we don't know what happens in any aircraft,

What we do know, is that a fairly recently produced variant of an aircraft has had two instances of aircraft sending themselves earthward. You'd be struggling to find another aircraft that has that record.

How about the A320? Air France 296 and Indian Airways 602 may have been 18 months or so apart.

 

[jb747]

You mean 737 MAX

A friend who has flown the 777 and 787, and is an ETPS graduate (test pilot), describes the 787 as the 767 MAX.

 

[jb747]

How about the A320? Air France 296 and Indian Airways 602 may have been 18 months or so apart.

It did not have two accidents, which killed everyone, and which resulted from a single piece of poor software.

I presume you mean Air India 605 (602 was the recent Lion Air 737). That was pretty similar to Asiana at SFO, in which the systems were mismanaged. All aircraft have modes that will fly you into the ground if you aren't sufficiently careful.

AF was pure pilot error. Way too low for any sort of fly by. He should never have been below the trees for a start. The aircraft performed exactly as it should. Because he had the power at idle, the aircraft had decelerated to much slower than it should have been. It was approaching the point at which alpha protection would have automatically engaged to protect against the stall. The engines accelerated exactly as they should have...but found they didn't work well when ingesting trees. When he tried to pull up, we was actually asking the aircraft to increase the angle of attack...and yet by being back at max alpha there was no more AoA available. If it had been a non FBW aircraft, at that point it would have stalled, and the sink rate would have increased, and the nose would have dropped, so it performed better than a non FBW aircraft woudl have.

Basically he said "watch this", and we all know how that ends.