General Coronavirus chit chat thread - non-travel specific

There seems to be a trend common with countries with "strong" male leaders which is their inability act early, well and decisively.

Male or female is irrelevant.

But strong does not equate to any of these features. Nor does leader.

A strong leader has no trouble deferring to appropriate expertise, or subordinates who are closer to the issue.

The problem is that just because someone ends up as the head of a political party, or president, or even dictator, it is not, in any way, a measure of their ability to lead.
 
Actually the Swedish experience is not as bad as most think.The real difference between Sweden and Denmark and Norway is that in mid March denmark and Norway banned all non citizens from entering whilst Sweden still allowed those from the EU and the UK to enter as did most in the EU at that time.Compared to the EU members that allowed the same entries then 5 of them have a much worse death rate per million population than Sweden and the Netherlands just marginally lowered.

Those Eastern block EU members closed their borders to everyone early-suited their no immigrant/refugee policies and their rate is much lower.

The other difference in Swedish numbers is their number includes everyone who tested positive and died within 30 days was counted as a Covid death.They do maintain a register of all residents of Sweden so easy to do so.Anyone who drops off the register is checked for their Covid status.

So there is definitely some evidence that border closures are very much more important than lockdowns in preventing Covid infections and deaths.
 
I'm sure the Swedish medical advice was to carry on... and look where that got them :(
While I should stress I'm not endorsing the Swedish strategy I have to think taking a short term view on the success or otherwise of their approach is flawed. Given the whole point of a herd immunity strategy is for people to get it and hence build up immunity, basing criticism on them based on the number of people getting it seems to miss the point.

My personal opposition to the strategy is that its an enormous risk on people's lives with no guarantee that it works. The proof of the pudding is probably going to take another couple of months or more to play out but I have to say that looking at their graphs I think its too early to say it hasn't worked and in fact there are some indications it might work. That is number of new cases and deaths have both peaked and seem to be on the way down, and if herd immunity does work (which is still an if) there is unlikely to be a second wave, or at least the impact of this second wave is likely to be less.
 
Male or female is irrelevant.

But strong does not equate to any of these features. Nor does leader.

I agree with what you say .


However the use of " " altered the meaning of strong. My apologies as many seemed to have missed how I was using "strong". Essentially I was taking the piss on their pig headiness and their actual failure to be true leaders.




The problem is that just because someone ends up as the head of a political party, or president, or even dictator, it is not, in any way, a measure of their ability to lead.


In times of crisis the true mettle of a person gets exposed. Which was my point.
 
. Sometimes the medical advice might be on point, but when it makes no sense to the ordinary person, insisting on certain things like schools being open just adds to public unease. That's not a good thing. I'm sure the Swedish medical advice was to carry on.


While I personally do not agree with the Swedish approach, it is not actually an example of a "strong" leader holding sway.

The choice they made was a whole of government one including their medical advisers and they as a group chose to go that way. How they made their decision was sound, and it was their right to go that way.

.. and look where that got them :(

To be fair to Sweden their approach was never going to be measured by them by what happened there in the immediate and short-term.

They have chosen to go a way where they believe that the long-term gain will outweigh the higher initial price. One area where they acknowledge that Sweden has done poorly is in trying to keep the virus out of their care homes.

Whether their approach is better or worse than say the Australian approach, or other approaches in the middle ground like Austria or Germany time will tell. But how they made their decision is to myself ok.
 
The point isn't really about the outcome in Sweden, it was more to address leadership in relation to accepting or following advice provided by so called medical experts. Blindly following medical experts may not be the right thing, and it can take some strong leadership to decide you want to go on another path that might be better for your state or country.
 
While I should stress I'm not endorsing the Swedish strategy I have to think taking a short term view on the success or otherwise of their approach is flawed. Given the whole point of a herd immunity strategy is for people to get it and hence build up immunity, basing criticism on them based on the number of people getting it seems to miss the point.

My personal opposition to the strategy is that its an enormous risk on people's lives with no guarantee that it works. The proof of the pudding is probably going to take another couple of months or more to play out but I have to say that looking at their graphs I think its too early to say it hasn't worked and in fact there are some indications it might work. That is number of new cases and deaths have both peaked and seem to be on the way down, and if herd immunity does work (which is still an if) there is unlikely to be a second wave, or at least the impact of this second wave is likely to be less.


Sweden is an interesting case study.

Though on their data, it has a lot of saw toothing going on and that makes me wonder if some of the reporting is not daily.

Deaths and cases are still on the increase. Cases will need to keep climbing if they want to reach herd immunity as they need say 60-80 % to have had CV19 and so far only say 20-30% have been infected.

They have not gone full on "herd immunity" as they have also been most aware they they did not want to overwhelm their hospitals. Their aim, officials have said, is to slow the pace of the virus, so as not to overwhelm the health care system. But yes herd immunity is also the goal.

They do have some CV 19 controls in place. In addition some of their citizens are practising measures stricter than what their government recommends.

One large mistake they have made though, and they have acknowledged this, is to not adequately protect their aged and those in nursing homes where the death rate has been high.

There are some unknowns (as there are with any approach):
  • It is not yet known if having caught CV19 will make one immune.
  • While it certainly may, if CV 19 mutates , then that immunity may not be reached
  • If it does make one immune, it may only be for months, or less than a year. If so it makes herd immunity unobtainable (unless a vaccine is developed to boost it)
  • The % to reach herd immunity is a guess

Hanage also dismisses the idea that Sweden could reach “herd immunity” anytime soon. The expectation is that about 60% of the population will need to be infected to achieve any kind of herd immunity, he says. And no one knows how long immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19 will last once someone is infected. If it lasts less than a year, for example, like its relative the common cold, then someone could be reinfected a year from now -- and even if they don’t fall very ill, they could still pass on the virus.

On the plus side their economy is less affected. The negative side is all the deaths, and many more yet deaths will still occur. One question is whether they are just advancing the deaths, but equally how many are keen to sacrifice an extra year r three of life?
 
The point isn't really about the outcome in Sweden, it was more to address leadership in relation to accepting or following advice provided by so called medical experts. Blindly following medical experts may not be the right thing, and it can take some strong leadership to decide you want to go on another path that might be better for your state or country.

I don't believe the Swedish blindly followed medical advice. They weighed up all the pros and cons (health and economy ) and made a considered decision to go that way.

I personally think they made the wrong decision, but how they chose to make their decision was not just their government blindly following medical experts.
 
I personally think they made the wrong decision, but how they chose to make their decision was not just their government blindly following medical experts.

Put that into the Australian context. That was the point.The Australian PM following medical advice, however nonsensical it might seem, vs state premiers who took a different path. People will have differing views on which is considered 'leadership'.
 
Saw this interesting graph on the use of public transport in 4 cities-Seatle,NYC,Miami and Stockholm.
Now Seatle and NYC started lockdown at the same time.Miami had a much softer lockdown and Stockholm didn't have an enforced lockdown.
1589090839936.png.

Not much difference.Seatle is the green line-the good citizens began their lockdown at least a week before being told.Not much difference between NYC-red- and Miami-red.Which leaves Stockholm in blue-they didn't have to be told.
 
Which leaves Stockholm in blue-they didn't have to be told.

I lived and worked there for 14 years until 2004. And became a Swedish citizen. Most of the people I knew in Stockholm didn't own cars, so the drop in public transport usage is particularly significant. But work-from-home in Sweden was a thing even in the nineties. And Sweden has for a long time been a very telecom connected society.

Although we think it might be very risky, let's hope the Swedish decision doesn't turn out to be a disaster.

If I understand it correctly, the direction Sweden is taking has been recommended by their leading medical experts. And I think many of them eg from the Karolinska Institutet are well respected, worldwide.
 
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And just when you think Australia is an exemplar against the nutters around the world ... The Oz

A police officer has been taken to hospital with a rib injury and Victoria Police have arrested ten people at an anti-lockdown protest on the steps of state parliament.

While some among the several hundred people who gathered from midday simply wanted restrictions eased for the sake of their personal freedom, anti-vaccination placards were prominent, with many protesters bringing their children.
...

At one point protesters chanted “arrest Bill Gates” - an apparent reference to the Microsoft founder’s role in funding mass-vaccination programs and research.

Other protesters made reference to the 5G mobile phone network, amid a conspiracy theory about it being linked to the spread of COVID-19, while others still presented a dossier “proving” coronavirus is “fake news” concocted by “the government and the media”.

:(:( :mad:

Reminded me of the embarrassment I felt when in Belgium, in February, when a local who knew Australia asked me "What is it with Australians and toilet paper?"
 
I think this is where @Flying mermaid's son works, nice of them to give all staff a day off. Seems to confirm the timeline around WFH too.

Yes he works for Google in SFO. They are a good company and really look after their people. I am not sure he is suffering from “burn out” as much as just missing the people interaction of being in an office. He is probably missing all the dogs - you are allowed to bring a dog to work and he was able to get doggie interaction without owning one :)

He is lucky that he has a partner (who also works for Google), so he has companionship, but apparently a lot of the software developers are wfh and on their own and I think that would be very hard.
 
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