General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Gremlin]

Greg Hunt has just clarified that the doctor who administered the overdose was signed off despite not having completed the Commonwealth course.

@Must...Fly! one of the criticisms I've heard of the Commonwealth training program is the lack of oversight around confirming completion. The material is only as good as its validation.

I stand by my assertion that we are *all* entitled to expect a suitable standard of care, regardless of whether we are nursing home residents or the wider public.

 

[dajop]

Can I ask a naive question, of those medically trained, with training being such a big issue now (apparently), how complicated is it to work out the dose such that training is such a big issue? Is there some special formula that you will only understand if you've been trained? I'm sure that there's a lot of nuances that the training would cover in relation to administration of the vaccine, but working out doses - surely that's not something too difficult for a qualified GP to do .... This sounds more like human error than a doctor who was deficient in knowledge.

For example US FDA instructions do not seem too complicated to this me as a complete layperson (medically):

https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

 

[RooFlyer]

In any case, I don't think one would regard an aged care home as a hospital setting?

Yes, you are correct of course. I was thinking of the state administered injections.

 

[Gremlin]

Can I ask a naive question, of those medically trained, with training being such a big issue now (apparently), how complicated is it to work out the dose such that training is such a big issue? Is there some special formula that you will only understand if you've been trained? I'm sure that there's a lot of nuances that the training would cover in relation to administration of the vaccine, but working out doses - surely that's not something too difficult for a qualified GP to do .... This sounds more like human error than a doctor who was deficient in knowledge.

For example US FDA instructions do not seem too complicated to this me as a complete layperson (medically):

https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

The training covers this.

One of the key differences between the programs is the validation that the training has actually been undertaken. I'd rather go through a program where the relevant authority has signed off on the fact that the person administering the jab has actually undertaken the training, than a program where the training requirement is self-reported.

In other words, I want the person administering my vaccine to have *done* the training, not just that they've *said* they've done the training.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think if there are material differences in the quality of training being provided to those delivering the state-administered vaccines and those delivering the federal-administered vaccines and those material differences have the potential to lead to different standards of care, then it absolutely should be called out.

From my perspective, we are *all* entitled to the best possible standard of vaccine administration regardless of whether we are a nursing home resident or not.

I agree. Call it out and condemn it if it’s negligent. But the QLD Premier immediately went political, going after the prime minister. No mention that I heard of the 5 or more levels of governance and medical oversight between the PM and the incident.

 

[Lynda2475]

Just think about the size and quantity of the deliveries if single-dose vials! That would be an ever bigger logistical problem, not to mention lack of freezer space.

Besides which multiple people are being vaccinated in one sitting, not the occasional single patient.

That entirely depends on the design of the vial, single doses wouldn't necessarily take more freezer space, if each one was 1/6 of the diameter of current vials.

In UK and USA they have had to implement stand by programs where you register to be able to show up at short notice to avoid wastage as there are always people who miss their appointment, chicken out etc.

I've been looking given I can get to RPA really easily but not such facility for stand by here in Australia that I can see.

 

[Gremlin]

I agree. Call it out and condemn it if it’s negligent. But the QLD Premier immediately went political, going after the prime minister. No mention that I heard of the 5 or more levels of governance and medical oversight between the PM and the incident.

As I understand it, the decision to "call out" was not in response to incident itself, but rather to the efforts to cover it up, which were entirely of a political nature.

 

[Gremlin]

That entirely depends on the design of the vial, single doses wouldn't necessarily take more freezer space, if each one was 1/6 of the diameter of current vials.

In UK and USA they have had to implement stand by programs where you register to be able to show up at short notice to avoid wastage as there are always people who miss their appointment, chicken out etc.

I've been looking given I can get to RPA really easily but not such facility for stand by here in Australia that I can see.

Single doses take up a lot more borosilicate glass, which is where the bottleneck is.

I've heard that standby programs are likely to happen here in Australia, but not for the initial phases

 

[Must...Fly!]

The training covers this.

One of the key differences between the programs is the validation that the training has actually been undertaken. I'd rather go through a program where the relevant authority has signed off on the fact that the person administering the jab has actually undertaken the training, than a program where the training requirement is self-reported.

In other words, I want the person administering my vaccine to have *done* the training, not just that they've *said* they've done the training.

I don't disagree. But a doctor or health professional has a requirement to undertake various training courses not all of which are fully assessed. Many are self-reported. You might say the former is better, but is it reasonable given the time frames involved here? These people are medical professionals, they have a career and reputation to protect.

If this happened again then I would absolutely say that the training needs to be looked at more thoroughly (again, because it will now after this incident). Even if this person was signed off by some sort of assessment or professional body, there is no guarantee that they actually do the job properly. For all we know, @Gremlin, this individual fully understood the training and this act was therefore negligence. I don't think you can point to the training validation as the problem so easily.

 

[Lynda2475]

NSW health are currently only admistering Pfizer at RPA, Liverpool and Westmead Hospitals - HQ and front line workers travel there for their vaccines.

Feds haven't published details of where they are giving aged care doses in NSW.

Hearing about the GP stuff up glad my Mum isn't in aged care and will be able to go to Hospital to get her shot.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I see Minister Hunt has now said that the doctor did not complete the training.

The provider should have the pants sued off them and rightly so. They and the doctor can enjoy the explanation to the board/regulator.

I guess that puts the training problem to rest - impossible to call the training a failure if it wasn't completed.

 

[Lynda2475]

Training stuff or negligence that GP should be removed from program and have to answer to medical board. Legal action also needs to be taken against employer who allowed him to work in program without verifying he had attended the process and understood the material (is there no exam at end? Hell I have to do exams to prove I understand all workplace training and nothing I do has potential to negatively impact health of others).

It has been well publicised that Pfizer vials contain 6 doses, to give 4x the dose they had to have used almost whole vial so should have been bloody obvious too much used.

All measurements should be double checked before giving a shot.

Stuff ups like this early on when pace is slow is not going to help instill confidence in the public to get vaccinated.

 

[dajop]

Once again trial by AFF! And trial by media! What is out about this gawddamn virus that makes us all experts in everything!!

 

[Gremlin]

I don't disagree. But a doctor or health professional has a requirement to undertake various training courses not all of which are fully assessed. Many are self-reported. You might say the former is better, but is it reasonable given the time frames involved here? These people are medical professionals, they have a career and reputation to protect.

If this happened again then I would absolutely say that the training needs to be looked at more thoroughly (again, because it will now after this incident). Even if this person was signed off by some sort of assessment or professional body, there is no guarantee that they actually do the job properly. For all we know, @Gremlin, this individual fully understood the training and this act was therefore negligence. I don't think you can point to the training validation as the problem so easily.

I don't say it, as I understand it, it's the health departments in the various states that are saying it.

 

[Gremlin]

I see Minister Hunt has now said that the doctor did not complete the training.

The provider should have the pants sued off them and rightly so. They and the doctor can enjoy the explanation to the board/regulator.

I guess that puts the training problem to rest - impossible to call the training a failure if it wasn't completed.

The training itself isn't the failure here. It's the framework around it that allows someone who hasn't done the training to administer vaccines. And it's fundamentally different to the framework adopted by the states.

 

[Gremlin]

My biggest concern with the maladministration of the doses is the impact it has on public confidence in the program. We all have a vested interest in ensuring the vaccination program is as successful as it possibly can be. This cannot be a positive to the public perception of the program.

 

[RooFlyer]

As I understand it, the decision to "call out" was not in response to incident itself, but rather to the efforts to cover it up, which were entirely of a political nature.

Really? I look forward to hearing more about the details of that, although there’s nothing about it on ABC so far this afternoon.

How do you cover up the nurse reporting the overdose, the doctor being stood down and someone being admitted to hospital? Did Morrison order the phones be unplugged?

 

[Must...Fly!]

The training itself isn't the failure here. It's the framework around it that allows someone who hasn't done the training to administer vaccines. And it's fundamentally different to the framework adopted by the states.

The provider has failed to ensure it's staff have taken the training course. I am glad we agree.

I am sure the government contract with the provider also demands that staff administering be properly trained.

The federal training consists of 6 modules. There is a record kept (via your AHPRA number) of your completion. One is also provided with a certificate of completion. I can't see how delivering the program in a different manner would have any impact on what happened yesterday. Unless the states are pro-actively checking that each individual is trained before they start work each day and giving them a gold sticker, the same potential for someone who is not trained exists. Could you outline specifically what the states are doing on the day to prevent someone who is untrained from administering the vaccine?

I would think we could all agree that the GP would almost certainly have known he was not trained. The requirement to be trained has been published very very widely, and not just within the medical profession. Why did he then proceed to administer the vaccine?

 

[Matt_01]

I am not in the medical field but surely this this is a human stuff up. I do not mean to over simplify the matter but what additional training is required for a doctor to give a Covid injection or any other injection The mechanics are basically the same measure out the dosage, get it checked and stick it in the patient - job done. I would like to think that doctors, nurses, etc. cover off this subject as part of their medical training.

 

[Gremlin]

Really? I look forward to hearing more about the details of that, although there’s nothing about it on ABC so far this afternoon.

How do you cover up the nurse reporting the overdose, the doctor being stood down and someone being admitted to hospital? Did Morrison order the phones be unplugged?

There's no coverup around the nurse reporting the maladministration, the doctor being stood down nor the male patient being admitted to hospital.

I, too, look forward to more details coming into the public domain.