General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[JohnK]

If your definition of “common sense” is people standing on dots in Coles and wearing totally not fit for purpose coverings on their face, then I suspect something else has gone out the window

My definition of lack of common sense is allowing individuals to make decisions affecting others.

I'm not irrational. I'm actually very logical. Multiple infections and reinfections in an office is gross negligence. It makes little difference that the first person had no idea they were positive. They don't need to test anymore. They don't need to isolate. They don't need to be vaccinated.

Let's leave it at that because you're clearly right and I'm totally wrong.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

We’ve had nearly three years of restrictions. People not being allowed out to their house. Not being able to travel interstate, leave the LGAs, see friends and family, losing homes, losing businesses, losing livelihoods, having vaccinations forced upon them, shall I continue? I agree that we have forgotten all too quickly, these sorts of extreme violations of peoples rights shouldn’t be.

The fact that you want them to continue because you’re “terrified” about going into the the office is on you, not anybody else. Selfishness to the extreme.

I think the time period was around 1 year and 9 months - sometime March 2020 until December 2021. And most of that was a period without vaccination - when no one was really advocating we have a zero restriction policy.

The claim that some people are concerned about lost livelihoods doesn't hold much water when people won't wear a mask in high density settings... setting in which casuals and our nurses or other essential services workers might be exposed. The former lose income being off work, the latter can delay essential medical treatment or other services.

Carrying a mask in one's back pocket and popping it on when face to face in retail settings, or on public transport is a 2 minute thing but could stop the spread of not only covid, but things like flu as well. If we were *really* concerned about lost livelihoods that is.

 

[Pushka]

My definition of lack of common sense is allowing individuals to make decisions affecting others.

I'm not irrational. I'm actually very logical. Multiple infections and reinfections in an office is gross negligence. It makes little difference that the first person had no idea they were positive. They don't need to test anymore. They don't need to isolate. They don't need to be vaccinated.

Let's leave it at that because you're clearly right and I'm totally wrong.

Not logical in the sense that what you perceive to be a risk that others must abide by, isn’t as much as the risks you are personally happy to take for yourself.

 

[andye]

I think the time period was around 1 year and 9 months - sometime March 2020 until December 2021. And most of that was a period without vaccination - when no one was really advocating we have a zero restriction policy.

The claim that some people are concerned about lost livelihoods doesn't hold much water when people won't wear a mask in high density settings... setting in which casuals and our nurses or other essential services workers might be exposed. The former lose income being off work, the latter can delay essential medical treatment or other services.

Carrying a mask in one's back pocket and popping it on when face to face in retail settings, or on public transport is a 2 minute thing but could stop the spread of not only covid, but things like flu as well. If we were *really* concerned about lost livelihoods that is.

Going off sick is not a lost livelihood by any means.

And at what point in time does your government-mandated "protection" of casuals and keyworkers (who are incidentally not choosing to wear N95s) end

We had a lady from the Ministry on one of our wards, checking everyone had their surgical mask on correctly. I asked her when she thought that masks would end in public hospitals. She thought it might end for non-clinical areas soon (but would likely return next flu season) but couldn't see a time when it would for clinical areas.

My view is that there is much in the clinical genuinely face to face interaction that is healing and enhances care.

I pity the poor people with dementia in nursing homes many of whom are unlikely to see a whole human face (of family or carer) again.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Going off sick is not a lost livelihood by any means.

And at what point in time does your government-mandated "protection" of casuals and keyworkers (who are incidentally not choosing to wear N95s) end

We had a lady from the Ministry on one of our wards, checking everyone had their surgical mask on correctly. I asked her when she thought that masks would end in public hospitals. She thought it might end for non-clinical areas soon (but would likely return next flu season) but couldn't see a time when it would for clinical areas.

My view is that there is much in the clinical genuinely face to face interaction that is healing and enhances care.

I pity the poor people with dementia in nursing homes many of whom are unlikely to see a whole human face (of family or carer) again.

It's not about government mandated protection.

It's about people who *claim* we need to end all restrictions so that casuals and others aren't off work, but at the same time won't wear a mask for two minutes in a high density setting to protect the people they say need to be in the workplace earning a living.

We shouldn't need a government mandate for masks in the very few circumstances where they might be of some use. That is, a person who has covid, is not aware they have it yet, but are capable of spreading.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

I accept common sense (in Australia at least) has gone out the window

For you

I posted earlier that the common flu/influenza is worse than Covid at this point in time.

 

[N860CR]

My definition of lack of common sense is allowing individuals to make decisions affecting others.

I'm not irrational. I'm actually very logical. Multiple infections and reinfections in an office is gross negligence. It makes little difference that the first person had no idea they were positive. They don't need to test anymore. They don't need to isolate. They don't need to be vaccinated.

Let's leave it at that because you're clearly right and I'm totally wrong.

And your solution seems to be standing on little dots at Woolies and wearing masks. Two things we’ve done to death and had zero success with. If you can show a scrap of evidence that your two solutions to the “problem” will make a difference then I’d love to see it. I’m not sure what world you’re living in, but individuals make decisions everyday that affect others.

It's not about government mandated protection.

It's about people who *claim* we need to end all restrictions so that casuals and others aren't off work, but at the same time won't wear a mask for two minutes in a high density setting to protect the people they say need to be in the workplace earning a living.

We shouldn't need a government mandate for masks in the very few circumstances where they might be of some use. That is, a person who has covid, is not aware they have it yet, but are capable of spreading.

Again, that’s all you’ve got. Masks, masks, masks. We’ve now got the lowest covid rates we’ve had in who knows how long and masks are as good as dead.

I’d be more than happy to listen to logical solutions that would have an impact, but I haven’t heard any for a while. We’re simply at the point where an extremely small but sadly vocal minority are pushing for certain restrictions just for the sake of it.

 

[JohnK]

For you

I posted earlier that the common flu/influenza is worse than Covid at this point in time.

No it's not and the numbers are not even close. But note both influenza and covid cause premature deaths.

If you need a good conspiracy theory then gain of function research is suitable.

 

[mviy]

No it's not and the numbers are not even close. But note both influenza and covid cause premature deaths.

With COVID it's mainly the elderly and often they are in aged care homes so likely have pre-existing medical conditions or simple weakened immune systems from old age. So doing RAT tests when visiting aged care homes although inconvenient makes sense. About the only setting it still makes senes to do them for the general population.

Kids that die with COVID pretty much always have serious pre-existing fatal medical conditions. Influenza is much more dangerous for children than COVID.

Let's get a booster about once a year and get on with life.

 

[JohnK]

With COVID it's mainly the elderly and often they are in aged care homes so likely have pre-existing medical conditions or simple weakened immune systems from old age. So doing RAT tests when visiting aged care homes although inconvenient makes sense. About the only setting it still makes senes to do them for the general population.

Can we please stop these convenient excuses to get on with life.

I've had diabetes for 20+ years, weakened immune system, severe depression etc etc etc. If I get covid and pass away don't blame existing conditions. It's definitely covid. 110%. No doubt whatsoever.

That 110 year old deserved to live longer.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Again, that’s all you’ve got. Masks, masks, masks. We’ve now got the lowest covid rates we’ve had in who knows how long and masks are as good as dead.

I’d be more than happy to listen to logical solutions that would have an impact, but I haven’t heard any for a while. We’re simply at the point where an extremely small but sadly vocal minority are pushing for certain restrictions just for the sake of it.

Not surprising we have a dip in numbers following the recent surge. People have limited immunity/protection for three or so months. Now we will go into summer, which should also in theory have lower transmission rates. Not sure it’s necessarily linked to masks.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

No it's not and the numbers are not even close. But note both influenza and covid cause premature deaths.

If you need a good conspiracy theory then gain of function research is suitable.

I respect you and all, but you are completely wrong on this, both points actually.

Also, Fauci has danced around GoF research in covid. It's looking more and more like covid came out of a US Lab.

​

 

[N860CR]

Not surprising we have a dip in numbers following the recent surge. People have limited immunity/protection for three or so months. Now we will go into summer, which should also in theory have lower transmission rates. Not sure it’s necessarily linked to masks.

Not suggesting the removal of mask mandates were the reason case numbers dropped (although if true, then some serious questions need to be answered!). The issue with people like yourself is you are so sold on masks that you believe they’re the be all and end all. Despite the fact that they’ve been proven a policy failure worldwide.

Post automatically merged: Sep 24, 2022

Can we please stop these convenient excuses to get on with life.

I've had diabetes for 20+ years, weakened immune system, severe depression etc etc etc. If I get covid and pass away don't blame existing conditions. It's definitely covid. 110%. No doubt whatsoever.

That 110 year old deserved to live longer.

Your chances of getting covid and passing away are roughly inline with getting struck by lightening. You’re either pushing hysteria or simply don’t understand the virus at all.

The 110 year old deserved to live longer? Ok… and masks and social distancing would have done that?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not suggesting the removal of mask mandates were the reason case numbers dropped (although if true, then some serious questions need to be answered!). The issue with people like yourself is you are so sold on masks that you believe they’re the be all and end all. Despite the fact that they’ve been proven a policy failure worldwide.

Post automatically merged: Sep 24, 2022

This is a misleading statement on your behalf.

Doctors on this thread have stated masks may be effective when worn by those who are infected, to help stop the spread. That’s not a personal opinion of mine.

Based on that, and the concern many people have that covid is impacting employment and health, it seems logical that masks would be worn in certain high density setting. To protect employment, and people being able to go to work and provide health and other essential services.

Masks in certain high density settings are one tool. They should be used together with other covid protocols. Research has found that mask wearing may lead to higher compliance with other protocols such as distancing and hand washing.

Masks are not 100% effective, but hardly any safety measures are.

 

[N860CR]

This is a misleading statement on your behalf.

Doctors on this thread have stated masks may be effective when worn by those who are infected, to help stop the spread. That’s not a personal opinion of mine.

Based on that, and the concern many people have that covid is impacting employment and health, it seems logical that masks would be worn in certain high density setting. To protect employment, and people being able to go to work and provide health and other essential services.

Masks are not 100% effective, but hardly any safety measures are.

It’s not misleading. It’s fact. Virtually every jurisdiction on earth has played the mask game and it’s been a failure. You’re latching onto offhand comments that masks may be of benefit without facts to support the position.

You know what would protect employment? Dropping of the isolation requirements. When that soon happens, is your obsession with masks going to end?

 

[Mac502]

I’m not sure I should enter into this thread but a couple of observations:
Surgical masks are only useful if they’re on an infected person.
N95s definitely help prevent the user being infected - have done multiple anaesthetics on COVID patients without getting it.
Vaccines have CLEARLY reduced the amount of people that have ended up in our hospitals yet don’t prevent people getting infected.
Putting helmet on now.

 

[JohnK]

I respect you and all, but you are completely wrong on this, both points actually.

Also, Fauci has danced around GoF research in covid. It's looking more and more like covid came out of a US Lab.

Wuhan lab. US lab. Greek lab. What does it matter where it came from? It was clear from the beginning this was not an accident. It's what's coming next that's a huge concern.

What concerns me is that we've tried to dismiss this as a tame virus similar to cold/influenza.

Anyway I think the number of deaths from covid are just about right. We should be taking this more seriously but we're not. What we are doing instead is saying "she'll be right mate, we need to keep dancing".

 

[drron]

I think the time period was around 1 year and 9 months - sometime March 2020 until December 2021. And most of that was a period without vaccination - when no one was really advocating we have a zero restriction policy.

The claim that some people are concerned about lost livelihoods doesn't hold much water when people won't wear a mask in high density settings... setting in which casuals and our nurses or other essential services workers might be exposed. The former lose income being off work, the latter can delay essential medical treatment or other services.

Carrying a mask in one's back pocket and popping it on when face to face in retail settings, or on public transport is a 2 minute thing but could stop the spread of not only covid, but things like flu as well. If we were *really* concerned about lost livelihoods that is.

Not quite correct. vaccines were rolled out here in Feb 21 so time without vaccines was ~ 50% of that time. of course >50% in the US and UK.

And people were advocating a very much reduced level of restrictions pre vaccines. the Great Barrington declaration was released in October 2020. Yes many trashed the concept but the release of emails between the CDC,NIH and Pharma + investigators fully funded by the NIH has revealed that was a purely political move

There were also a group of US Physicians way back in April 2020 predicting that lockdowns and school closures would have adverse effects on mortality and morbidity. And so it has come to pass. Mortality from dementia is up 16.4% in Australia for the first 5 months of 2022, cancer +5.5% and diabetes 18.7%
For the year ending May 2022 the figures are 20.5%,6.0% and 20.0% respectively. these figures are from the ABS.

And for school closures the US has seen the biggest falls in maths and reading standards in nearly 30 years.

The Pandemic Erased Two Decades of Progress in Math and Reading (Published 2022)

The results of a national test showed just how devastating the last two years have been for 9-year-old schoolchildren, especially the most vulnerable.

www.nytimes.com

Unfortunately I believe the damage will be evident for at least several years.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Not quite correct. vaccines were rolled out here in Feb 21 so time without vaccines was ~ 50% of that time. of course >50% in the US and UK.

And people were advocating a very much reduced level of restrictions pre vaccines. the Great Barrington declaration was released in October 2020. Yes many trashed the concept but the release of emails between the CDC,NIH and Pharma + investigators fully funded by the NIH has revealed that was a purely political move

There were also a group of US Physicians way back in April 2020 predicting that lockdowns and school closures would have adverse effects on mortality and morbidity. And so it has come to pass. Mortality from dementia is up 16.4% in Australia for the first 5 months of 2022, cancer +5.5% and diabetes 18.7%
For the year ending May 2022 the figures are 20.5%,6.0% and 20.0% respectively. these figures are from the ABS.

And for school closures the US has seen the biggest falls in maths and reading standards in nearly 30 years.

The Pandemic Erased Two Decades of Progress in Math and Reading (Published 2022)

The results of a national test showed just how devastating the last two years have been for 9-year-old schoolchildren, especially the most vulnerable.

www.nytimes.com

Unfortunately I believe the damage will be evident for at least several years.

Dementia deaths during the COVID-19 pandemic in Australia, Summary

The age-standardised death rate for Australians with dementia recorded on their death certificates fell during the first 10 months of 2020, probably as a result of measures designed to prevent...

www.aihw.gov.au

Dementia deaths were lower in 2020 than previous years, with the suggestion that measures to control covid were directly linked to the lower death rate from dementia.

These results suggest that the measures in place to control the virus indirectly reduced dementia death rates in Australia during the first 10 months of 2020, and contrasts with the experience of other developed countries like the United Kingdom where deaths among people with dementia (even when not due to COVID-19) rose during the pandemic (Alzheimer’s UK 2020).​

​

My reference to the time period for restrictions ending December 2021 reflects when vaccines became widely available and enabling things such as international travel to be planned.

 

[drron]

Dementia deaths during the COVID-19 pandemic in Australia, Summary

The age-standardised death rate for Australians with dementia recorded on their death certificates fell during the first 10 months of 2020, probably as a result of measures designed to prevent...

www.aihw.gov.au

Dementia deaths were lower in 2020 than previous years, with the suggestion that measures to control covid were directly linked to the lower death rate from dementia.

These results suggest that the measures in place to control the virus indirectly reduced dementia death rates in Australia during the first 10 months of 2020, and contrasts with the experience of other developed countries like the United Kingdom where deaths among people with dementia (even when not due to COVID-19) rose during the pandemic (Alzheimer’s UK 2020).​

​

My reference to the time period for restrictions ending December 2021 reflects when vaccines became widely available and enabling things such as international travel to be planned.

Again working through 2020 I did see many dementia patients. those that died were virtually all called covid deaths hence the lower rate of dementia deaths.
The sadder part was because of the restrictions virtually all dementia patients lost their carers and support systerm because of the restrictions. So those that were coping at home many ended up in an aged care facility. not a great result for the control measures.