General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Princess Fiona]

Oh you are really clutching at straws. In the video there is only the woman and the policeman and a policewoman in the shot. She was walking alone. Defenceless -yes definitely.
And here is the video.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1296380893087461377

And you still have no chance of getting your way on masks.
any other discussion isn't going to change anyone's mind now.

The video in that tweet doesn’t have any context whatsoever.
I’m just playing devils advocate here on the masks issue but quoting such media doesn’t add any weight to the argument

 

[kangarooflyer88]

And what if it was at an anti mask protest. 3 policemen were present and the woman was defenceless. I also remember well an old gentleman sitting by himself in a park and police pulled him off the seat and handcuffed him. I think that one was in Sydney

C'mon mate! No one has been arrested for not wearing a mask that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Could they have been arrested for assaulting a police officer? Absolutely! But in most parts of the world that's a crime! Were people fined for not wearing a mask? Absolutely! But that was their choice.

Pre vaccination. Outbreaks in nursing homes. People out at an illegal gathering during lockdown when the general public had few if any defences against the spread and impacts of covid. I'm not sure the victim is the one that you've identified.

The whole lockdown thing wasn't based on science. I have yet to see a single study that found that stay-at-home orders made much of a difference, particularly amongst those fully vaccinated and wearing a mask. All of a sudden those orders lifted despite new variants making COVID much easier to circulate. In hindsight, we should've scrapped lockdowns and borders closures. The only thing was N95 respirators didn't exist in 2020.

This is not about anybody 'getting their own way'.

It's about providing accurate information.

If people want to reduce their chances of spreading covid to others a mask may be useful, particularly when combined with other covid protocols.

I think a mistake everyone who is arguing about the mask is making is we treat all masks as being equal. Clearly they are not. Some N95 masks perform better than others. Most N95s perform better than the baggy blues. When used properly (like a condom) an N95 respirator can greatly reduce your chances of catching COVID. And I say this as someone who has now been a close contact with people dozens of times including with some individuals for hours on end. The only thing I had going for me was wearing an N95 at all times when I was around anyone.

What is frustrating is having people come up to you when you wear a mask in public and taunt you or worse. In particular I recall being taunted for the 30 minute train ride from Freemantle back to Perth CBD earlier this month on the train, despite signs clearly stating that mask wearing is compulsory. If I was in a wheelchair or had coloured skin, I doubt anyone on board would tolerate these attacks against someone. But on the train no one bothered, they just ignored the individual. I think that says a lot about Australian values!

-RooFlyer88

 

[drron]

So those that say that she could have been arrested for assaulting a police officer should go back and look at the video. At the start you can only see the woman with no one else near her. At 2 seconds you see her feet and no other feet. At 5.5 seconds the policeman has his hands around her throat. Then she lashes out which is not a surprise when you are being choked for no obvious reason.. And naturally there are news reports of the incident. Here is Your ABC's account.

Victoria Police reviewing alleged 'choking' arrest of woman not wearing a mask in Melbourne

Victoria Police is conducting an internal investigation after a video showing an officer holding a 21-year-old woman who wasn't wearing a mask by the throat was posted online.

www.abc.net.au

Victoria Police said the 21-year-old St Kilda woman was arrested in Collingwood on Monday evening after refusing to provide her identification to the officers for not wearing a face covering.

In a statement, police said the woman became "physically aggressive" and kicked the female officer in the upper body when they decided to arrest her.

Although they said she was arrested for assaulting a police officer the paragraph before said she was arrested for not providing identification for not wearing a face covering. So we are to believe that in less than 3.5 seconds she is asked for her ID and has refused is utter B/s as then the police officer is already choking her.

And if you don't believe no one was arrested for not wearing a face mask you were not paying attention.
South Australia-

Woman arrested in Adelaide Hills for refusing to wear face mask at supermarket

A 56-year-old woman is arrested after allegedly refusing to wear a mask inside a supermarket in the Adelaide Hills as the Premier says there is "no serious escalation" of cases overnight.

www.abc.net.au

NSW.

Elderly staff and customers charged after refusing to mask up

A woman in her 60s told police she had no intentions of complying with the current orders.

www.canberratimes.com.au

QLD.

Man suffers heart attack after being arrested for not wearing a mask

Queensland Police officers didn't believe a man had heart problems as they arrested and handcuffed him - until he suffered a cardiac arrest, his son says.

www.skynews.com.au

NSW again when fellows were arrested even though they told police they had just bought masks at the servo. Police had followed them in.

Men seek legal fees of $64,000 after being violently arrested over face masks

The men were charged with assaulting and resisting police, however the charges were dropped when CCTV emerged of the incident.

www.smh.com.au

And if you read reports of the anti vax,anti mask demos you will see we are told a significant number were indeed arrested for not wearing masks.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And naturally there are news reports of the incident. Here is Your ABC's account.

Victoria Police reviewing alleged 'choking' arrest of woman not wearing a mask in Melbourne

Victoria Police is conducting an internal investigation after a video showing an officer holding a 21-year-old woman who wasn't wearing a mask by the throat was posted online.

www.abc.net.au

In which the ABC states:

What happened in the lead-up to the police officer holding the woman around her neck was not captured in either video.​

​

But these are alleged incidents of non-compliance.

The discussion now is in whether people *want* to protect others by not passing on the virus when they are infectious.

In high density settings masks may be useful to help stop passing it on.

 

[andye]

In which the ABC states:

What happened in the lead-up to the police officer holding the woman around her neck was not captured in either video.​

​

But these are alleged incidents of non-compliance.

The discussion now is in whether people *want* to protect others by not passing on the virus when they are infectious.

In high density settings masks may be useful to help stop passing it on.

I understand your logic and profound sense of courtesy but the community benefit is minimal now
I.e odds of having covid x chance of being asymptomatic with covid x percentage risk reduction of transmission by wearing a mask in that setting
On top of that covid is no longer spreading exponentially so there is less of a community multiplier effect

 

[drron]

In which the ABC states:

What happened in the lead-up to the police officer holding the woman around her neck was not captured in either video.​

​

But these are alleged incidents of non-compliance.

The discussion now is in whether people *want* to protect others by not passing on the virus when they are infectious.

In high density settings masks may be useful to help stop passing it on.

Really? You know that the ABC when that article was written had seen the video I posted?
Believe your own eyes. There is 3.5 seconds from the time she was walking up the street to being choked by a policeman. What did she get up to in that short time.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Really? You know that the ABC when that article was written had seen the video I posted?
Believe your own eyes. There is 3.5 seconds from the time she was walking up the street to being choked by a policeman. What did she get up to in that short time.

The video does not show what happened before that 3.5 seconds… it does not show any interaction occurring with police before the filming started. There is also editing, dunno if the video has been edited.

Do you have the outcome of the police investigation?

This issues is however detracting from the discussion about the effectiveness of vaccines and other covid protocols.

 

[drron]

And on cue here is a study from Monash University on the response to Covid particularly non pharmaceutical interventions including masks and lockdowns. They certainly don't support your position.

Public health ethics: critiques of the “new normal” - Monash Bioethics Review

The global response to the recent coronavirus pandemic has revealed an ethical crisis in public health. This article analyses key pandemic public health policies in light of widely accepted ethical principles: the need for evidence, the least restrictive/harmful alternative, proportionality...

link.springer.com

 

[kangarooflyer88]

And on cue here is a study from Monash University on the response to Covid particularly non pharmaceutical interventions including masks and lockdowns. They certainly don't support your position.

Public health ethics: critiques of the “new normal” - Monash Bioethics Review

The global response to the recent coronavirus pandemic has revealed an ethical crisis in public health. This article analyses key pandemic public health policies in light of widely accepted ethical principles: the need for evidence, the least restrictive/harmful alternative, proportionality...

link.springer.com

I think the evidence is fairly overwhelming at this point that vaccines work and they work surprisingly well. Despite the virus becoming endemic, we aren't seeing as much hospitalization and death from the virus compared to pre-vaccine. Indeed, I think that's the biggest flaw of this study, they don't consider pharmaceutical interventions like vaccines.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And on cue here is a study from Monash University on the response to Covid particularly non pharmaceutical interventions including masks and lockdowns. They certainly don't support your position.

Public health ethics: critiques of the “new normal” - Monash Bioethics Review

The global response to the recent coronavirus pandemic has revealed an ethical crisis in public health. This article analyses key pandemic public health policies in light of widely accepted ethical principles: the need for evidence, the least restrictive/harmful alternative, proportionality...

link.springer.com

That link is only to a home page.

You yourself have said masks can be effective to help stop spread when worn by an infected person. Are you retracting that?

Edited to add I found the article through the title, and it quotes two studies on masks. One study found a small benefit to wearing them, the other found none. If you err on the side of caution and believe that there is a small benefit, then that is perhaps worthwhile for those not wanting to spread covid. Think about it this way… wearing a mask might stop a person spreading it to a health technician who then doesn’t have to take a week off work. That week could see 8 patients a day, or 40 for the week who will undergo vital cancer screening.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

You yourself have said masks can be effective to help stop spread when worn by an infected person. Are you retracting that?

But what do masks have to do with vaccines?

In any event, I'd be curious whether the bivalent BA.1 has finally reached shore yet or if we're still in a waiting game. Granted, I did end up opting for the Novavax booster this round since we don't yet know how well these bivalent boosters will work against the new BA.2.75, BA.3 and BA.4 and BQ strains.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But what do masks have to do with vaccines?

In any event, I'd be curious whether the bivalent BA.1 has finally reached shore yet or if we're still in a waiting game. Granted, I did end up opting for the Novavax booster this round since we don't yet know how well these bivalent boosters will work against the new BA.2.75, BA.3 and BA.4 and BQ strains.

-RooFlyer88

Somehow the discussion turned from vaccines to the issue of masks, which has been further linked to lockdowns

Unfortunately vaccines seem to be only part of the solution given their limited effectiveness in terms of protection. Not sure that boosters every four months are going to be sustainable either?

 

[drron]

Well the link was from the article so I guess google the title.

Public health ethics: critiques of the “new normal”​

And another article about flu pandemics and what works and doesn't work. However I only have a download so google the title and it will show up.

Disease Mitigation Measures in the Control
of Pandemic Influenza
THOMAS V. INGLESBY, JENNIFER B. NUZZO, TARA O’TOOLE, and D. A. HENDERSON

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Unfortunately vaccines seem to be only part of the solution given their limited effectiveness in terms of protection. Not sure that boosters every four months are going to be sustainable either?

This is what l said months ago. I'm definitely not going to be taking a booster every 6 months or wear a mask for the rest of my life. It should all be optional. Covid has probably mutated again, new strain BA7 or BA8 by now. I think it's just the media amping up the public fear factor every now and again and looking back at it, covid wasn't that serious to begin with.

 

[N860CR]

This is what l said months ago. I'm definitely not going to be taking a booster every 6 months or wear a mask for the rest of my life. It should all be optional. Covid has probably mutated again, new strain BA7 or BA8 by now. I think it's just the media amping up the public fear factor every now and again and looking back at it, covid wasn't that serious to begin with.

Pretty soon we’ll be up to BA16, and anyone who’s suffered through that knows just how horrible it is.

Post automatically merged: Sep 28, 2022

That link is only to a home page.

You yourself have said masks can be effective to help stop spread when worn by an infected person. Are you retracting that?

Edited to add I found the article through the title, and it quotes two studies on masks. One study found a small benefit to wearing them, the other found none. If you err on the side of caution and believe that there is a small benefit, then that is perhaps worthwhile for those not wanting to spread covid. Think about it this way… wearing a mask might stop a person spreading it to a health technician who then doesn’t have to take a week off work. That week could see 8 patients a day, or 40 for the week who will undergo vital cancer screening.

So that suits the position of wearing a helmet all the time? Would certainly help with the small chance of a fall, which is actually more severe in the elderly than covid.

Again, once the totally pointless isolation is dropped, are we going to stop hearing about your mask obsession?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So that suits the position of wearing a helmet all the time? Would certainly help with the small chance of a fall, which is actually more severe in the elderly than covid.

Again, once the totally pointless isolation is dropped, are we going to stop hearing about your mask obsession?

Wearing a mask is not about protecting me. It is about a person wanting to protect others.

 

[drron]

Maybe fresh air is a better answer than masks.

An Old Defence Against New Infections: The Open-Air Factor and COVID-19 - PMC

Outdoors, the risks of transmission of COVID-19 and many other respiratory infections are low. Several environmental factors are known to reduce the viability of viruses and other infectious pathogens in the air. They include variations in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The commonest place of transmission by a long way is the family home with most studies showing that is the source in more than 50% of cases. Next comes public transport.
So do you wear a mask at home?
No evidence at all for wearing a mask outdoors.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Maybe fresh air is a better answer than masks.

An Old Defence Against New Infections: The Open-Air Factor and COVID-19 - PMC

Outdoors, the risks of transmission of COVID-19 and many other respiratory infections are low. Several environmental factors are known to reduce the viability of viruses and other infectious pathogens in the air. They include variations in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The commonest place of transmission by a long way is the family home with most studies showing that is the source in more than 50% of cases. Next comes public transport.
So do you wear a mask at home?
No evidence at all for wearing a mask outdoors.nm

The debate is about whether you want to protect others by wearing a mask in high density situations. As you mention, public transport is one.

 

[N860CR]

Wearing a mask is not about protecting me. It is about a person wanting to protect others.

And we know we’re looking at tiny percentages of possible protection (if any). Again, once the isolation is dropped, you’ll get over your mask obsession?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And we know we’re looking at tiny percentages of possible protection (if any). Again, once the isolation is dropped, you’ll get over your mask obsession?

Masks can help prevent the spread of covid. If people are in high density settings and they don’t want to pass on covid, they can consider wearing a mask.

This is not calling for a government mandate. It’s something people may wish to consider *if they don’t want to pass it on*.

But if you don’t care about passing it on, or it’s too inconvenient to wear a mask in high dentist settings, then you can’t also complain that people are missing vital medical appointments because their practitioner might be away due to covid.