Gift Cards at Supermarkets

[Jack_OC]

This is literally what Amex said to me:



So their categorisation does have a direct relationship to points earn. As you mention, the example you use is because supermarkets is restricted to the merchants listed by Amex, and obviously WISH gift cards is by Woolworths.

Sorry, it's not clear to me how categorisation as a hotel versus restaurant affects points earn? Wouldn't you earn the same points either way?

All I'm saying is, I don't think retailers can decide for themselves whether they qualify as a "major supermarket", where transactions earn 3 pts per $. And as I mentioned, not even all retailers owned by Woolies qualify, so it's pretty clear there is more to it. I'm guessing there is a list of specific merchant names that qualify for 3 pts per $, as opposed to a category.

Anyway, regardless of how mysterious the workings of this are, I just plan to make hay while the sun shines!

 

[Plutonus]

it's not clear to me how categorisation as a hotel versus restaurant affects points earn? Wouldn't you earn the same points either way?

It depends what card(s) you have. Obviously in that circumstance the rep was not referring to a Platinum Edge card.

All I'm saying is, I don't think retailers can decide for themselves whether they qualify as a "major supermarket", where transactions earn 3 pts per $. And as I mentioned, not even all retailers owned by Woolies qualify, so it's pretty clear there is more to it. I'm guessing there is a list of specific merchant names that qualify for 3 pts per $, as opposed to a category.

Well yes, Amex decides who is a 'major supermarket'. It's not exactly hidden on their website - hopefully this helps you when next shopping:

Participating retailers include the following merchants who have been classified as “major supermarkets”: Bi-Lo, Flemings, Safeway, Woolworths, Coles, IGA, Franklins, Fishers, Fresh Provisions, Food For Less, Supabarn, Macro Wholefoods.

Although I have also earned 3pts/$ at Thomas Dux, and it's not listed (but owned by WOW).

 

[Jack_OC]

Well yes, Amex decides who is a 'major supermarket'. It's not exactly hidden on their website - hopefully this helps you when next shopping:

I'm not entirely sure what the sarcasm is about. I'm very well aware of the fact that their website makes it clear what retailers are considered "major supermarkets". I was simply responding to the following comment made by you:

Amex says the merchants categorise themselves. So obviously WOW HQ have said they're a supermarket.

To explain again, I was just pointing out that merchants categorising themselves is not what decides whether transactions earn 3 points per $. You have now agreed with that, so I assume we can leave that issue behind!

You seem to have picked up on me expressing confusion about how a transaction that shows up "MEMBER GIFT CARDS WEBSITE" gets 3 points per $. The reason for my confusion is quite simple: I had previously assumed that the transaction description had to include the actual name of a retailer specified in the T&Cs as earning 3 pts/$. In other words, when it comes to Woolies, I assumed that if the transaction description did not include the word "Woolworths", it would not earn 3 pts per $. Like others, I was pleasantly surprised to find that is not the case, so I can only conclude that "MEMBER GIFT CARDS WEBSITE" has been entered into the Amex system as a merchant where transactions earn 3 points per $. That seems quite surprising to me, but as I said, pleasantly so, and I'm not complaining!

 

[burmans]

I'm not entirely sure what the sarcasm is about. I'm very well aware of the fact that their website makes it clear what retailers are considered "major supermarkets". I was simply responding to the following comment made by you:



To explain again, I was just pointing out that merchants categorising themselves is not what decides whether transactions earn 3 points per $. You have now agreed with that, so I assume we can leave that issue behind!

You seem to have picked up on me expressing confusion about how a transaction that shows up "MEMBER GIFT CARDS WEBSITE" gets 3 points per $. The reason for my confusion is quite simple: I had previously assumed that the transaction description had to include the actual name of a retailer specified in the T&Cs as earning 3 pts/$. In other words, when it comes to Woolies, I assumed that if the transaction description did not include the word "Woolworths", it would not earn 3 pts per $. Like others, I was pleasantly surprised to find that is not the case, so I can only conclude that "MEMBER GIFT CARDS WEBSITE" has been entered into the Amex system as a merchant where transactions earn 3 points per $. That seems quite surprising to me, but as I said, pleasantly so, and I'm not complaining!

It is unfortunately true that companies categorise themselves, there have been instances where Amex has basically said that yes we agree they are an X but they say they are a Y and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[Jack_OC]

It is unfortunately true that companies categorise themselves, there have been instances where Amex has basically said that yes we agree they are an X but they say they are a Y and there is nothing we can do about it.

That may well be true with cards that have earn rates based on general categories such as "restaurants" or "hotels", when the T&Cs don't specify which merchants qualify. However, I don't think it is the case when it comes to 3 pts per $ at major supermarkets, given that the T&Cs do state which specific merchants have been classified as "major supermarkets".

Also, I'm assuming the categories Amex refer to are the standard Merchant Category Codes? If so, it would be impossible to differentiate between "major" supermarkets and any other type of supermarket or grocery store on that basis, as they'd all come under the same MCC ("Grocery Stores and Supermarkets"). I know for a fact that I don't earn 3 pts per $ at all supermarkets, so I'm pretty sure it's not the MCC that triggers the 3 pts per $ earn rate.

 

[burmans]

That may well be true with cards that have earn rates based on general categories such as "restaurants" or "hotels", when the T&Cs don't specify which merchants qualify. However, I don't think it is the case when it comes to 3 pts per $ at major supermarkets, given that the T&Cs do state which specific merchants have been classified as "major supermarkets".

Also, I'm assuming the categories Amex refer to are the standard Merchant Category Codes? If so, it would be impossible to differentiate between "major" supermarkets and any other type of supermarket or grocery store on that basis, as they'd all come under the same MCC ("Grocery Stores and Supermarkets"). I know for a fact that I don't earn 3 pts per $ at all supermarkets, so I'm pretty sure it's not the MCC that triggers the 3 pts per $ earn rate.

Ah well, if you aren't prepared to believe what Amex tell us and evidence to support that that is indeed what they do, we'll just leave you to your belief. Kind of ironic that you start off saying you can't understand how this happens but are now so certain that you do know clearly we aren't about to convince you!

 

[medhead]

That may well be true with cards that have earn rates based on general categories such as "restaurants" or "hotels", when the T&Cs don't specify which merchants qualify. However, I don't think it is the case when it comes to 3 pts per $ at major supermarkets, given that the T&Cs do state which specific merchants have been classified as "major supermarkets".

Also, I'm assuming the categories Amex refer to are the standard Merchant Category Codes? If so, it would be impossible to differentiate between "major" supermarkets and any other type of supermarket or grocery store on that basis, as they'd all come under the same MCC ("Grocery Stores and Supermarkets"). I know for a fact that I don't earn 3 pts per $ at all supermarkets, so I'm pretty sure it's not the MCC that triggers the 3 pts per $ earn rate.

You're over thinking this. The merchant categories themself as a supermarket! In this case web cards or whatever it's called. Get that only as a supermarket. Amex then say, "oh look web cards is a supermarket and it is a woolworths supermarket". That gets 3 points because we, Amex, have decided woolworths is a major store. This is precisely what was said woolworths head office has called itself a supermarket. Then Amex has said woolworths supermarket = major supermarket.

The bws example, so the merchant says we're a booze shop. Amex say not a supermarket, therefore can't be a major supermarket.

Don't over analyse and it's easy to understand.

 

[Jack_OC]

Ah well, if you aren't prepared to believe what Amex tell us and evidence to support that that is indeed what they do, we'll just leave you to your belief. Kind of ironic that you start off saying you can't understand how this happens but are now so certain that you do know clearly we aren't about to convince you!

Who's "we"?! Plutonus, who initially said points earn is based on how merchants categorise themselves, subsequently agreed that's not the case wrt 3 pts per $ at "major supermarkets". I just reiterated that in response to your comment, as you seemed to have missed that point.

BTW, I'm not certain I know how this works. I just said I'm pretty sure it's not based on the MCC. Not sure why you feel the need to twist my words. And as I've already explained, the whole reason for my confusion about this in the first place was because it was clearly not a simple matter of basing points earn on categorisation. So there is no inconsistency or irony there.

You're unthinking this. The merchant categories themself as a supermarket! In this case web cards or whatever it's called. Get that only as a supermarket.

Yep, with you so far.

Amex then say, "oh look web cards is a supermarket and it is a woolworths supermarket". That gets 3 points because we, Amex, have decided woolworths is a major store. This is precisely what was said woolworths head office has called itself a supermarket. Then Amex has said woolworths supermarket = major supermarket.

You've lost me here though. Obviously I understand the theory of what you're saying, just not how it might work in practice. Clearly a human could do exactly as you have described, but I assume determining points earn rate is not a manual process. So as far as I can tell, there would have to be something in the transaction description that identifies the Gift Card Website as being part of Woolies. And that's the thing - there isn't, at least not anything that's visible to the cardholder. Hence the only suggestion I could come up with was that Amex have entered that website into their system as a merchant where transactions earn 3 pts per $.

The bws example, so the merchant says we're a booze shop. Amex say not a supermarket, therefore can't be a major supermarket.

That's a very good point - that certainly sounds like the explanation for the fact that certain Woolies-owned retailers do not earn 3 pts per $.

Don't over analyse and it's easy to understand.

I fully agree it's best not to over analyse, I just can't help myself!

 

[burmans]

Who's "we"?! Plutonus, who initially said points earn is based on how merchants categorise themselves, subsequently agreed that's not the case wrt 3 pts per $ at "major supermarkets". I just reiterated that in response to your comment, as you seemed to have missed that point.

BTW, I'm not certain I know how this works. I just said I'm pretty sure it's not based on the MCC. Not sure why you feel the need to twist my words. And as I've already explained, the whole reason for my confusion about this in the first place was because it was clearly not a simple matter of basing points earn on categorisation. So there is no inconsistency or irony there.



Yep, with you so far.




You've lost me here though. Obviously I understand the theory of what you're saying, just not how it might work in practice. Clearly a human could do exactly as you have described, but I assume determining points earn rate is not a manual process. So as far as I can tell, there would have to be something in the transaction description that identifies the Gift Card Website as being part of Woolies. And that's the thing - there isn't, at least not anything that's visible to the cardholder. Hence the only suggestion I could come up with was that Amex have entered that website into their system as a merchant where transactions earn 3 pts per $.



That's a very good point - that certainly sounds like the explanation for the fact that certain Woolies-owned retailers do not earn 3 pts per $.




I fully agree it's best not to over analyse, I just can't help myself!

Cant help myself either, its not based on transaction description but MCC. What I think may be the source of confusion is that categorising as a supermarket and what is a major supermarket are not the same thing. When a supermarket (or any merchant) sets up their merchant agreement with Amex they self nominate a category. However categories are always difficult, I'd assume that the giftcard section of WW chose the neatest category, i.e. supermarket. Merchants do choose this selection (though Amex may have rights to override), they understand their business best. So WW Giftcards say they are in supermarket category whereas BWS say they are a liquor retailer.

Then we need to overlay the major supermarket. I'd suggest that probably Amex did not negotiate an agreement with the individual businesses but went to Woolworths themselves (and IGA/Coles/Franklins etc) and aks them to nominate who is in their group and then marks that against their MCC. For Franklins for example which are franchises they would need to approach a huge number of individual groups so this is the only approach that makes sense.

Then when they check the transaction they check two seperate things

a) does the MCC say its a supermarket
b) is the MCC flagged as being part of the major group.

This is my understanding of how this works based on a) what Amex have told me and others, b) what actually happens.

 

[zzyss]

Ambassador Card still works for me - they just charge postage ($2 regular, $5 registered) is all. In fact I don't even have an Ambassador Card. Rewards Central had some stitch-up with them a couple of years ago so I put in my RC details and they accepted it.

 

[medhead]

You've lost me here though. Obviously I understand the theory of what you're saying, just not how it might work in practice. Clearly a human could do exactly as you have described, but I assume determining points earn rate is not a manual process. So as far as I can tell, there would have to be something in the transaction description that identifies the Gift Card Website as being part of Woolies. And that's the thing - there isn't, at least not anything that's visible to the cardholder. Hence the only suggestion I could come up with was that Amex have entered that website into their system as a merchant where transactions earn 3 pts per $.

As clearly outlined below, it is about the merchant code NOT the individual transaction. The merchant decides they are a supermarket and then Amex decides that merchant is an major supermarket, by whatever process but the one described below seems reasonable. Note that the merchant is classified as both a supermarket and major supermarket. Then when the transaction is processed the system can automatically assign points based on the merchant, not based on the transaction details.

Cant help myself either, its not based on transaction description but MCC. What I think may be the source of confusion is that categorising as a supermarket and what is a major supermarket are not the same thing. When a supermarket (or any merchant) sets up their merchant agreement with Amex they self nominate a category. However categories are always difficult, I'd assume that the giftcard section of WW chose the neatest category, i.e. supermarket. Merchants do choose this selection (though Amex may have rights to override), they understand their business best. So WW Giftcards say they are in supermarket category whereas BWS say they are a liquor retailer.

Then we need to overlay the major supermarket. I'd suggest that probably Amex did not negotiate an agreement with the individual businesses but went to Woolworths themselves (and IGA/Coles/Franklins etc) and aks them to nominate who is in their group and then marks that against their MCC. For Franklins for example which are franchises they would need to approach a huge number of individual groups so this is the only approach that makes sense.

Then when they check the transaction they check two seperate things

a) does the MCC say its a supermarket
b) is the MCC flagged as being part of the major group.

This is my understanding of how this works based on a) what Amex have told me and others, b) what actually happens.

 

[Jack_OC]

Cant help myself either, its not based on transaction description but MCC. What I think may be the source of confusion is that categorising as a supermarket and what is a major supermarket are not the same thing. When a supermarket (or any merchant) sets up their merchant agreement with Amex they self nominate a category. However categories are always difficult, I'd assume that the giftcard section of WW chose the neatest category, i.e. supermarket. Merchants do choose this selection (though Amex may have rights to override), they understand their business best. So WW Giftcards say they are in supermarket category whereas BWS say they are a liquor retailer.

Then we need to overlay the major supermarket. I'd suggest that probably Amex did not negotiate an agreement with the individual businesses but went to Woolworths themselves (and IGA/Coles/Franklins etc) and aks them to nominate who is in their group and then marks that against their MCC. For Franklins for example which are franchises they would need to approach a huge number of individual groups so this is the only approach that makes sense.

Then when they check the transaction they check two seperate things

a) does the MCC say its a supermarket
b) is the MCC flagged as being part of the major group.

This is my understanding of how this works based on a) what Amex have told me and others, b) what actually happens.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. You seem to believe that each business or group of businesses has its own MCC. That's not the case - MCCs are used to group different merchants in the same line of business together. Amex's MCC directory is available online: https://secure.cmax.americanexpress...l/AtWork/japa/files/MCC_Directory_April07.pdf

One of the MCCs in the directory is "5411 Grocery Stores and Supermarkets". My understanding is that any merchant that wishes to identify themselves to Amex as a grocery store or supermarket would choose that MCC. In other words, my local Foodworks would have the same MCC as Woolworths. But at Foodworks I get 1 point per $, while at Woolworths I get 3. How is that possible if the earn rate is based on MCC and both merchants use the same MCC? Therein lies my confusion, and the basis of my belief that the 3 pts per $ earn rate is not based on MCC (or at least not solely on MCC).

Anyway, I'm making a promise to myself not to waste any more time on this - it's really not important. What is important is 3 pts per $, however it works!

 

[serfty]

...
Anyway, I'm making a promise to myself not to waste any more time on this - it's really not important. What is important is 3 pts per $, however it works!

Not specifically pertinent to this thread, but:

Sorry, it's not clear to me how categorisation as a hotel versus restaurant affects points earn? Wouldn't you earn the same points either way?...

I have an Amex Reserve card.

With "Hotel" spend on this card I get two points per dollar while using it at a "Restaurant" garners 3 points per dollar.

 

[medhead]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. You seem to believe that each business or group of businesses has its own MCC. That's not the case - MCCs are used to group different merchants in the same line of business together. Amex's MCC directory is available online: https://secure.cmax.americanexpress...l/AtWork/japa/files/MCC_Directory_April07.pdf

One of the MCCs in the directory is "5411 Grocery Stores and Supermarkets". My understanding is that any merchant that wishes to identify themselves to Amex as a grocery store or supermarket would choose that MCC. In other words, my local Foodworks would have the same MCC as Woolworths. But at Foodworks I get 1 point per $, while at Woolworths I get 3. How is that possible if the earn rate is based on MCC and both merchants use the same MCC? Therein lies my confusion, and the basis of my belief that the 3 pts per $ earn rate is not based on MCC (or at least not solely on MCC).

Anyway, I'm making a promise to myself not to waste any more time on this - it's really not important. What is important is 3 pts per $, however it works!

Because there is more to it than just the MCC. The major supermarket is bit is determined by who the merchant itself. There unique identifier that allows Amex to pay the money into the correct account. Franklins and woolworths would have obviously have separate merchant accounts with Amex. That's how they know. There are two bits of information in use. The MCC nominated by the merchant and the merchant themselves. In the case that raised all this, the merchant woolworths (a major!!!) have nominated their head office as a supermarket. Nothing to do with the transaction but with who is processing the transaction.

That is also my limit. It has been explained simply enough by a number of people. This also matches how things work.

 

[burmans]

Because there is more to it than just the MCC. The major supermarket is bit is determined by who the merchant itself. There unique identifier that allows Amex to pay the money into the correct account. Franklins and woolworths would have obviously have separate merchant accounts with Amex. That's how they know. There are two bits of information in use. The MCC nominated by the merchant and the merchant themselves. In the case that raised all this, the merchant woolworths (a major!!!) have nominated their head office as a supermarket. Nothing to do with the transaction but with who is processing the transaction.

That is also my limit. It has been explained simply enough by a number of people. This also matches how things work.

+1 I'll think you'll find I said there are two bits of information in use too but not worth arguing with someone who starts off saying they dont know what the answer is and then tells you you are wrong. Oh and I didnt say they had their own MCC either, I said they categorise themselves to a MCC, the being part of a major supermarket grouping is an entirely seperate thing (again, since multiple people have now noted this but Jack seems determined to ignore)

 

[coles525]

Ambassador Card still works for me - they just charge postage ($2 regular, $5 registered) is all. In fact I don't even have an Ambassador Card. Rewards Central had some stitch-up with them a couple of years ago so I put in my RC details and they accepted it.

Also a member or EMC/RC, will need to find my card and look into it.

 

[zzyss]

Also a member or EMC/RC, will need to find my card and look into it.

Just find your member number on the RC website. The card didn't have any additional info that was necessary.

 

[asterix]

Just find your member number on the RC website. The card didn't have any additional info that was necessary.

I can find my username but not my member number, how do I find that? How did you then apply for the Ambassador card?

 

[coles525]

Know it off by heart, B...............

 

[zzyss]

I can find my username but not my member number, how do I find that? How did you then apply for the Ambassador card?

Oh, good question. I just assumed that they had the info on the site. They used to have it, but I can't find it any more.

Back a couple of years ago they issued all members with a Rewards Central card which was part of the Ambassador Card program. They didn't renew, it seems - I sent them an enquiry about it last week and haven't heard boo back from them (as a Gold member, they normally reply within a day or so). Like I said - Ambassador Card didn't seem to care very much and just processed my order.