Heads up about program changes

[Danger]

I completely understand your risk mitigation strategy and the reasons for doing it. Perhaps I should have added "just saying" to my previous.

No, no. Not necessary. I was just getting on my high horse again.

 

[serfty]

And as a QF Platinum one would earn the same amount on a deep discount Qantas ticket paying almost half the airfare.. ...

and get a third the redemption value ...

 

[JohnK]

and get a third the redemption value ...

Not quite true unless you start cherry picking routes.

 

[serfty]

Not quite true unless you start cherry picking routes.

I have been cherry picking routes for 19 years and use what is of the most benefit that I perceive to myself (not anyone else) - I do share some of this insight here and elsewhere.

In many ways QF WP is good value, but so are Advantage rewards - I get the best of all worlds..

 

[Shan Man]

The sooner they stop the red-e-sale rort the better. It's ridiculous that people can earn status by flying a measly 70 MEL-SYD-MEL in Y- a year.

You are quite right. Status should only be possible on flexible airfares and above.

Yes, lets stop the people who actually spend alot of time flying and being loyal to an airline from gaining status. Red-E-Deals already earn half the SC as a flexible fare, so itll take twice as long for someone to achieve status as someone who just flies flexible.

Unless of course you think its reasonable that someone who spends twice as much time flying as a flexible fare flyer to achieve the same status isnt as loyal to said airline.

There is alot of corporate travel out there that uses BFOD or non-flexible fare ticketing rules also.

 

[Awesom Andy]

Yes, lets stop the people who actually spend alot of time flying and being loyal to an airline from gaining status. Red-E-Deals already earn half the SC as a flexible fare, so itll take twice as long for someone to achieve status as someone who just flies flexible.

Unless of course you think its reasonable that someone who spends twice as much time flying as a flexible fare flyer to achieve the same status isnt as loyal to said airline.

There is alot of corporate travel out there that uses BFOD or non-flexible fare ticketing rules also.

You might also like to check with a lot of the airlines around the world where you get zero points or status when you're on the cheapest fares.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Unless of course you think its reasonable that someone who spends twice as much time flying as a flexible fare flyer to achieve the same status isnt as loyal to said airline.

'loyalty' as in the number of flights shouldn't be a deciding factor IMO. For an $85 fare, by the time you take out the actual cost of transportation, what's left?

$$ spend to the airline should a deciding factor. And I think that should be something like a minimum $25k a year to qualify for platinum, or 25 flights in First or business class. $12k for gold, or 12 flights in First or business class.

Controversial perhaps I guess.

 

[basso]

$$ spend to the airline should a deciding factor. And I think that should be something like a minimum $25k a year to qualify for platinum, or 25 flights in First or business class. $12k for gold, or 12 flights in First or business class.

I agree, and I think this was the thrust of the changes, to better align status with revenue. Of course, there are a number of people here who will fight this suggestion, and argue that their MASAs were bringing in the same revenue, but they don't really. They were such good value because the revenue to Qantas was not there.

 

[medhead]

Yes, lets stop the people who actually spend alot of time flying and being loyal to an airline from gaining status. Red-E-Deals already earn half the SC as a flexible fare, so itll take twice as long for someone to achieve status as someone who just flies flexible.

Unless of course you think its reasonable that someone who spends twice as much time flying as a flexible fare flyer to achieve the same status isnt as loyal to said airline.

There is alot of corporate travel out there that uses BFOD or non-flexible fare ticketing rules also.

You're in for a fun reception. There are many around here who strangely think that the loyal flyer who takes 100+ flights a year actually costs Qantas money. That Qantas would rather sell those seats to a non-loyal person who flies once a year. Yes, I can imagine your shock. But delusions do exist.

Finally a comment about the person who claims the new earning is related to revenue. Survey says Bom, Bom. Wrong! Absolutely wrong if you listen to the so called experts around here. They claim it is about profit not revenue.

 

[medhead]

I agree, and I think this was the thrust of the changes, to better align status with revenue. Of course, there are a number of people here who will fight this suggestion, and argue that their MASAs were bringing in the same revenue, but they don't really. They were such good value because the revenue to Qantas was not there.

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Any basic analysis shows revenue is not at issue.

 

[TonyHancock]

The sooner they stop the red-e-sale rort the better. It's ridiculous that people can earn status by flying a measly 70 MEL-SYD-MEL in Y- a year.

Yes, lets stop the people who actually spend alot of time flying and being loyal to an airline from gaining status. Red-E-Deals already earn half the SC as a flexible fare, so itll take twice as long for someone to achieve status as someone who just flies flexible.

Unless of course you think its reasonable that someone who spends twice as much time flying as a flexible fare flyer to achieve the same status isnt as loyal to said airline.

There is alot of corporate travel out there that uses BFOD or non-flexible fare ticketing rules also.

I have completed the quote of my post for you so that it now exactly as per my original. See if you can spot your omission.

 

[basso]

Finally a comment about the person who claims the new earning is related to revenue. Survey says Bom, Bom. Wrong! Absolutely wrong if you listen to the so called experts around here. They claim it is about profit not revenue.

The experts around here are wrong, and unfortunately blinded by the abstraction called status credits with all its anomolies. Effectively what status credits measure, indirectly, is your contribution to Qantas' revenue. This is of course linked to profit. Maybe it would have been all easier if they just put the expenditure requirements on the status, and done away with status credits altogether. But you know, there are anomolies there, and the answer is to go out and seek them, rather than come up with creative reasons for why you think Qantas should be awarding you for Classics or MASA fares that don't have the same revenue to Qantas.

 

[Isochronous]

The experts around here are wrong, and unfortunately blinded by the abstraction called status credits with all its anomolies. Effectively what status credits measure, indirectly, is your contribution to Qantas' revenue. This is of course linked to profit. Maybe it would have been all easier if they just put the expenditure requirements on the status, and done away with status credits altogether. But you know, there are anomolies there, and the answer is to go out and seek them, rather than come up with creative reasons for why you think Qantas should be awarding you for Classics or MASA fares that don't have the same revenue to Qantas.

I think the real criticism of MASAs is that they are apparently good enough for the Orange Cancer which is supposed to be a lean and mean cost base, so why not for QF?

 

[JohnK]

'loyalty' as in the number of flights shouldn't be a deciding factor IMO. For an $85 fare, by the time you take out the actual cost of transportation, what's left?

A lot of airlines around the world dont quite have the domestic network we have in Australia. USA and possibly Canada are the only major ones that come to mind.

I have been playing along with this silly joke about rorting on red E-deals. If you stop people from earning status on domestic red e-deals then someone like me is going to fly Tiger and Jestar. Yes Jetstar. Why? I am not paying more if I can't earn status.

So what happens when you lose that red E-deal customer? You lose the people who fly your carrier the most. All those scheduled flights per day now need to be reduced or they are going to go out half empty. Not desirable. The few flexible customers are not going to keep the schedules going and I am certainly not going to buy flexible airfares.

And for the precious few on AFF. The red E-deals customers are much more important to Qantas than those who have been having fun and gaming the system on the Any Seat award glitch. Why? Most of us spend way more on Qantas that the latest additions to Platinum One. And some of us dont get to Platinum either.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There are many around here who strangely think that the loyal flyer who takes 100+ flights a year actually costs Qantas money. That Qantas would rather sell those seats to a non-loyal person who flies once a year. Yes, I can imagine your shock. But delusions do exist.

I'm not an account, so maybe someone could explain this to me.

A platinum buys $85 fares SYD-MEL and gets gets all sorts of benefits... extra baggage, priority check-in, food and drinks in the lounge, the best seats, a shadow and dedicated staff at the premium call centre. All for the same price a non status member pays. From whom does QF make more money on that single flight for the same fare?

then when it comes to overseas travel, the platinum buys a cheap economy fare not only for themselves, but sometimes their whole family as well. Or they ask for extra award seats to be released. They then have extra baggage, F lounge food and drinks, F lounge massages, the best seats, a shadow, business class wines, business class drinks, business class amenity kits, business class headphones, business class PJs, and attention from senior crew. All for the same price a non-status member pays. (and some of the benefits I suspect are to the detriment of those actually in the higher cabins, like when champagne runs out.)

On that flight, for the same fare, who does qantas make more money off?

by the time you take out the cost of the transportation, where is the benefit to QF of these types of platinums flying so often?

If platinum (and gold) could only be obtained by flying First or business class, the profit would be there to warrant the extra benefits?

 

[Flashback]

A lot of earlines around the world dont quite have the domestic network we have in Australia. USA and possibly Canada are the only major ones that come to mind.

Are they the lines that make your ear look old?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A lot of earlines around the world dont quite have the domestic network we have in Australia. USA and possibly Canada are the only major ones that come to mind.

I have been playing along with this silly joke about rorting on red E-deals. If you stop people from earning status on domestic red e-deals then someone like me is going to fly Tiger and Jestar. Yes Jetstar. Why? I am not paying more if I can't earn status.

So what happens when you lose that red E-deal customer? You lose the people who fly your carrier the most. All those scheduled flights per day now need to be reduced or they are going to go out half empty. Not desirable. The few flexible customers are not going to keep the schedules going and I am certainly not going to buy flexible airfares.

And for the precious few on AFF. The red E-deals customers are much more important to Qantas than those who have been having fun and gaming the system on the Any Seat award glitch. Why? Most of us spend way more on Qantas that the latest additions to Platinum One. And some of us dont get to Platinum either.

my response to this would be that if they cut status from red e-deals then so be it... the incentive for status would still be there for those platinums and golds bringing in the real profit. They could fly 25 business class flights a year (domestic) and the benefit would be that their once or twice a year holiday overseas with the family - if it happened to be in economy - would have the perks attached.

and do we really really need to have flights every 15 minutes between SYD and MEL in the morning peak? is 15 minutes actually the make or break in a business schedule? It's a bit like low cost carriers - creating demand that might not otherwise be there. If QF/VA made the fares more expensive they might not need to run 3 or 4 planes in a single hour between key cities.

Don't get me wrong - I think basic status should reward loyalty. Silver for example by-passes the queues, gives seat selection, gets pretty good priority at the call centre. Those types of things really matter when it comes to frequent travel.

 

[JohnK]

and do we really really need to have flights every 15 minutes between SYD and MEL in the morning peak? is 15 minutes actually the make or break in a business schedule? It's a bit like low cost carriers - creating demand that might not otherwise be there. If QF/VA made the fares more expensive they might not need to run 3 or 4 planes in a single hour between key cities.

It is not the 15 minutes you will worry about.

When the schedule becomes 7:00am, 9:00am, 11:00am, 1:00pm, 3:00pm, 5:00pm, 7:00pm is when you start worrying and try to work out what went wrong? A little too late then.

 

[medhead]

The experts around here are wrong, and unfortunately blinded by the abstraction called status credits with all its anomolies. Effectively what status credits measure, indirectly, is your contribution to Qantas' revenue. This is of course linked to profit. Maybe it would have been all easier if they just put the expenditure requirements on the status, and done away with status credits altogether. But you know, there are anomolies there, and the answer is to go out and seek them, rather than come up with creative reasons for why you think Qantas should be awarding you for Classics or MASA fares that don't have the same revenue to Qantas.

Unfortunately, the word you used was revenue not profit. On a 737 there are 138 economy seats and 12 business seats, the revenue of those economy seats at the lowest fare on routes I take is approximately equal to the business fare revenue. As for the suggestion that I am looking for creative reasons for Qantas to given me points for classic awards and MASA; that comment is pretty contemptible, given the way it misrepresents my position that has been clearly stated on AFF a number of times. It is wrong to suggest the issue is about getting the same revenue. The issue is getting revenue that Qantas deems acceptable, as I've said MANY, MANY times if they aren't happy with the revenue they could always reprice. I HAVE NEVER said that Classic awards, as is, should earn. NEVER!

I'm not an account, so maybe someone could explain this to me.

A platinum buys $85 fares SYD-MEL and gets gets all sorts of benefits... extra baggage, priority check-in, food and drinks in the lounge, the best seats, a shadow and dedicated staff at the premium call centre. All for the same price a non status member pays. From whom does QF make more money on that single flight for the same fare?

This BS has been addressed a number of times. Some one flying MEL-SYD 120-140 times a year, that is the platinum requirement. Someone doing that type of flying does not use priority check-in - Cost zero. In fact the first interaction with a staff member might very well be at boarding when the Q card is scanned.
They have the shopper docket BP, cheaper than the cardboard BP taken by the non-status member.
the best seats and shadows (if available) cost nothing
Extra baggage is not used either - Gain to Qantas by selling freight on the flight. How much do they make from the basic 23kg of freight, versus not getting that freight capacity from a non-status member who will check luggage.
Someone doing that flying rarely takes the on board meal, and qantas know this and can under cater the flight.
Half of their flights are in the morning, meaning they take a coffee and a muffin or a couple of bits of toast, or pancakes. What does that cost, $2? What is it in the evening? $5 in lounge food?

So we have $7 a week in cost, offset by revenue from 46 kg of freight and the saved cost of not catering on board.

It is pretty obvious that at best there is no cost difference, or that the platinum flyer provides extra revenue because their predictability allows Qantas to make money in other ways.

That is before we even get on to the fact that Qantas have millions of seats to fill every month, which means a predictable frequent flyer provides great certainly for planning purposes than a random once a year flyer.

then when it comes to overseas travel, the platinum buys a cheap economy fare not only for themselves, but sometimes their whole family as well. Or they ask for extra award seats to be released. They then have extra baggage, F lounge food and drinks, F lounge massages, the best seats, a shadow, business class wines, business class drinks, business class amenity kits, business class headphones, business class PJs, and attention from senior crew. All for the same price a non-status member pays. (and some of the benefits I suspect are to the detriment of those actually in the higher cabins, like when champagne runs out.)

Again with the BEST Seats BS, as if they cost? Is that a joke or distraction?
I can certainly say I've never had business anything while travelling in economy on a cheap red-e-deal. Another massive distraction to suggest that happens all the time when travelling with heaps of family. The rest the the items you mention are easily covered by the fact that Qantas has determined that they what to provide those services. Then with have the extra baggage, that isn't used most of the time anyway - Meaning money for Qantas from freight.

On that flight, for the same fare, who does qantas make more money off?

Yet again you're trying to make this about profit from one seat, while ignoring the fact that it is the whole flight that is important not one seat. The revenue and profit from the whole flight. which gets into you following statements. Qantas needs to fill every seat on the plane, they make the profit from the whole economy cabin. If that is full that means more profit. The cheap seats are still going to be for sale whether purchased by a platinum member or a non status member. Selling the cheap seats allows then to sell more expensive seats. The benefit of the platinums flying so often is Qantas know they can sell an expensive seat to someone else. I think you're failing to see the wood for the trees, or should that be plane for the seats.

by the time you take out the cost of the transportation, where is the benefit to QF of these types of platinums flying so often?

If platinum (and gold) could only be obtained by flying First or business class, the profit would be there to warrant the extra benefits?

 

[dajop]

Half of their flights are in the morning, meaning they take a coffee and a muffin or a couple of bits of toast, or pancakes. What does that cost $2. What is it in the evening? $5 in lounge food.

Not too mention people flying that frequently may indeed get to the airport as late as possible and straight to the gate, bypassing the lounge. It's probably those pesky golds that aren't flying as often that spend more time imbibing in the lounge!