NBN Discussion

[whatmeworry]

The Australian Financial Review article about NBN complaints and why we got what we voted for.

It is probably of some surprise to Communications Minister Mitch Fifield that sentiment is suddenly turning so pointedly against the Coalition-flavoured national broadband network.
The minister did the media rounds this month to trumpet the fact the plan to connect the nation to high-speed broadband is halfway through, arriving for his interviews with the air of a man who feels he is fulfilling his remit to the letter.
There are now about 5.7 million premises in Australia able to connect to the NBN, and about 2.4 million people have signed up, Mr Fifield said the network will be 75 per cent built by mid-2018, and will be finished by 2020. By the government's own narrow definition of success it is in clover, it promised to get the network built quicker than Labor, and it is ... but it is finally being made to realise that this is not enough.
Take a look at any of the barometers of our times – Twitter comments, Facebook musings or quaint old Google News – and they will show the minister the uncomfortable reality that the natives are increasingly restless … and they don't blame Labor.

Read more: NBN complaints? We're getting what we voted for | afr.com
Follow us: @FinancialReview on Twitter | financialreview on Facebook
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[RB]

Iinet are not endearing themselves to me. I got home from a few days away to find my ADSL 2+ service had been suspended. I rang them to get it sorted and was told that they had done a preauthorisation on my CC and it had failed. This was four days before the direct debit was due - when my card would have been fine.

Got reconnected and the CSR could not understand why I was annoyed they had cut me off *before* my bill was due, just in case I didn't pay. :evil:

So I took the opportunity to ask when my contract was up - "Last month" was the reply. "Hmmm" I said. I don't think I will taking up their offer to switch to nbn.

I am getting about 12/1Mbps with them. Just checked Telstra 4G: 120/30Mbps :shock:

I was originally with Netspace (started 13yrs ago). They are in my bad books too. Don't seem to give staff the scope to handle things- Netspace used to be fine. I have had a hassle dragging on since first week of April when our home phone went down-now a battle between them & Telstra re an incorrect callout fee. Next week it will be going to TIO if it is not resolved.
Currently getting similar to you on our ADSL2 but our NBN at our new address will be with someone else.

 

[Hvr]

NBN cabling being done today. In our unit block the PMG hole is directly outside my bedroom window. He was quiet but the sound of cable coming off the roller was enough to wake me up. Technician apologised but I assured him it was a welcome noise.

 

[JessicaTam]

NBN cabling being done today. In our unit block the PMG hole is directly outside my bedroom window. He was quiet but the sound of cable coming off the roller was enough to wake me up. Technician apologised but I assured him it was a welcome noise.

So are you getting FTTBW*?

*Fibre to the bedroom window

 

[Quickstatus]

Much discussion in the media about NBN

Unfortunately for the Coalition they have been given a poison chalice by Conroy and Rudd. When these 2 were racking up massive deficits they sold a pup called the NBN and said it will be a commercial enterprise so the borrowed money to fund the NBN would not be added to the deficit.
This was important because Rudd did not want the deficit to balloon even more than what it already was. Swan was predicting fantasy surpluses and the NBN on the govt books would not have helped.
They would not take the advice of multiple experts in the industry that there was no commercial return unless looking at the very long term - AKA telecom which then morphed into telstra = many decades. All the while the 50-80 Bill sits on the govt books.
So the only way was to say to NBNCo - make a return on the investment. All borrowed money.
Then the coalition takes over and reduces the overall build cost.
Problem is that is all borrowed money and to make a return the NBNCo has to charge an expensive CVC.
Unfortunately I believe there is inelasticity in the broadband market - most people will only pay so much for internet.
The telcos (RSP) know this - thats why the vast majority of internet plans are less than $100. They cram more people into bandwidth - so peak hour congestion
The only way to reduce the CVC is to write down the government's equity which currently sitting at 30Bil. All borrowed money anyway.

Turnbull said he would fix it but hasnt /can't- and he is left holding Conroy and Rudd's poison chalice. He is torn between a rock and a hard place - writing down the government investment will add the 30-50Bill onto the deficit

 

[jb747]

There is no doubt that the entire NBN is built upon fantasy and b/s. The problem is that the CVC is also part of that fantasy. The claim is that by having it set so high, they get to pay down the debt. But, because it is so high, ISPs don't buy it. That in turn means that people get poor internet, so there is even less incentive for them to purchase faster or more expensive plans. CVC drives demand down, it does not increase the cash flow.

 

[moa999]

With the original plan reportedly done on a napkin it's no wonder.

It was a fallacy to think that a national network that provided broadband (yes even satellite) to areas without water, sewerage and in some cases power, could be done off budget, at no cost to the taxpayer.

Yet both parties seem committed to this.

The Libs plan to reduce the cost has been equally smart (FTTB and HFC), dumb (buying Optus network then scrapping it) and stupid (FTTN lengths over 500m).

I agree with the concept that those using more data, speed should pay more, but if you pay it you should have some guarantee your provider will actually provide it

 

[Quickstatus]

CVC is a throttle. Even those willing to payfor higher bandwidth cannot escape the contention that CVC induces.

my kids school Noncontended 100/100 non NBN FIxed wireless at $3000/month is closer to the truth with the pricing. (Sure not everyone needs noncontention)

 

[jb747]

CVC is a throttle.

Calling it a throttle implies that the user has some control over it. It's more of a choke point. The sad thing is that the NBN, especially in its FTTN form is already full of choke points.

I would buy 100 meg/sec if I could. But, my connection is about 45 meg/sec, so the best I can do it get a 50 meg plan....which will never be able give more than 90% of what is being purchased anyway. That leads to another issue with the NBN, and that's the tiered pricing, when the actual delivery is anything but...

 

[Quickstatus]

What would the cost be to nbnco if the minimum speed is guaranteed 25/5? Instead of an "up to". Granted telcos will not see many customers ordering a speed boost. Rather than reducing CVC why not keep the CVC but up the bandwidth per $ of CVC - keep the same money but faster speed instead of less $$ same speed

.....

Re FTTN - is there contention between phone socket and node?

 

[jb747]

What would the cost be to nbnco if the minimum speed is guaranteed 25/5?

The NBN are supposed to be guaranteeing exactly that...or at least they will be once the era of coexistence with ADSL is over. Supposedly, on initial connection it's 12/1, but 18 months down the road, when they turn off ADSL and up the power of the VDSL signals, the minimum jumps to 25.

But, that isn't the issue with regards to CVC and contention. You could have a 1gig fibre connection, but if the ISP isn't supplying enough virtual circuit, you'd still be choked off.

"Up to" plans should be banned. In that case they are taking the same amount of money, but not delivering the product. In fact, they are being deceptive about just what they are delivering. Perhaps the system should be a plan, but one that is then reduced if the customer's connection only allows a lesser figure (i.e. if you can only connect at 40 mps, then you'd only pay 80% of the 50 plan). Predicted speeds vs distance, or by actual address, are readily available.

 

[moa999]

All networks are contended to some degree.
They rely on not everyone using the Net at the same time, or not using their full pipe, or sending traffic in different directions.

In the early days it was one modem between 20-40 dial up subscribers. Now there are a lot more choke points.

Your cheap home router would probably fall down if you had ten kids browsing the net on tablets, even before they swamp your incoming bandwidth.

The FTTN nodes have 1Gbps bandwidth (relatively easily increased to 10) between generally 100-200 (though up to 384) houses -- i.e. only 5-10Mbps/house which is a potential choke point, but not when NBN CVC at POI averages 0.9.
Even the FTTP GPON network shares bandwidth though it's potential average is higher.

But even if your RSP did have sufficient CVC at the POI, if everyone decided to hit the same US server, you'd probably hit a choke point on the international pipe, or backhaul pipe.


FTTN is the only tech where a small minority of lines cant reach 25/5 - with 12/1 being the guarantee, but once an area has its copper turned off that enables the VDSL tech to squeeze higher speeds - so the minimum available should be 25/5 to all (if you want to pay for it).

But say someone is on a home phone only NBN connection - actually all they need is 0.2/0.2 - more than sufficient for a couple of VOIP streams

 

[jb747]

All true, but FTTN makes these issues something that you'll face every day. And possibly worst of all, it provides no long term solutions.

BTW, I doubt that my network would be choked by 10 kids on iPads...They'd be on a AC wifi access point each!

 

[docjames]

So my internet (Naked ADSL) has failed again (second time in three weeks).

Looks like a new tactic to get me to switch to NBN!

 

[Quickstatus]

Going down to Jindabyne to stay with friend who has 48/11 NBN FTTN. He says it's been stable at that speed most of the waking hours.

I thought I would try to upload my data file to Dropbox. Size of file 500GB. Thousands of files within the data file.

Theoretically 11 Mbit/s = 1.4 MByte/s
500GB at 1.4 MBps = should at best take approx 100hours
What is a realistic figure?

I might pay him to boost his speed to the next speed boost 100/40 while I'm there (hopefully I may then get upload of 20Mbit/s

 

[moa999]

Probably close to that I suspect. Its only the download that seems to be congested over the peaks..

I assume friend is already on 50/20 or 100/40 but they are limited by their line conditions...
If they have more than one phone point, getting a registered cabler out to ensure there is only a single line going to a single point can improve things quite a bit

 

[moa999]

All true, but FTTN makes these issues something that you'll face every day.!

People on FTTP connections are facing CVC limits at the POI and international link congestion every day.
No different to FTTN.

I agree that if the CVC congestion is ever solved, then at some point FTTN has some other limitations that come into play,
particularly those on lines over 500m

 

[Quickstatus]

He is already on 50/20 so is not too bad.
I might have to reimburse him for using his data allowance and boost him to the next level 100/40

 

[ajw373]

Going down to Jindabyne to stay with friend who has 48/11 NBN FTTN. He says it's been stable at that speed most of the waking hours.

I thought I would try to upload my data file to Dropbox. Size of file 500GB. Thousands of files within the data file.

Theoretically 11 Mbit/s = 1.4 MByte/s
500GB at 1.4 MBps = should at best take approx 100hours
What is a realistic figure?

I might pay him to boost his speed to the next speed boost 100/40 while I'm there (hopefully I may then get upload of 20Mbit/s

If in Jindabyne then unless I am mistaken it will be fixed wireless (aka WiFi), in which case don't think 100/40 is available. And even when it is, refer to the posts above about contention, as fixed wireless faces contention issues too. WiFi spectrum is rather limited.

 

[ajw373]

particularly those on lines over 500m

Which are the bulk....