Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[Flashback]

My problem is that as much as I want to be vaccinated, I have both a GP and Haematologist insisting that I wait and see. Why, because I have a clotting disorder.
I have had a large pulmonary embolism, two amputations on the same leg, the first one after they found 11 clots leading to a below the knee and then one month into my rehab I had the second one, above the knee also clot related. All whilst under anticoagulation medication.
Four weeks ago I was admitted yet again to hospital again with clots, one in my toe, which was saved in the nick of time. The more dangerous thing was the small bunch of clots that was stopped by a narrowing of the artery, leading to stent to trap the clots against the wall and to open up the artery until they could be dissolved. Again all whilst under medically supervised anticoagulent medication.
So I meet all the criteria to get the Pfizer vax but I’m 58.
So your suggestion is to force me to be vaccinated because the government seems to think it’s safe. And because the government deems its safe for me your suggestion of no jab no pay in simply unconscionable. You know if you are under 50 and cannot take the Pfizer vax they offered them AstraZeneca. But no apparently I’m expendable. So where is my choice ? Or maybe you don’t care and I’m simply a threat to you.
p.s. I had my flu shot in May, so antivaxxer I am not.

My mother has a clotting disorder and saw the GP today, and the doctor rang a haematologist that specialises in thrombosis. She said because she had never had a clot, she was a low risk. So both my folks are now booked in for AZ.

Appreciate your situation is the opposite (in that you have had clots) but hopefully the above is helpful in that with speaking with a Dr, it should help in getting you the right care.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Not sure whether I got my wires crossed relating to a recent batch of local Singapore cases being fully vaccinated but carrying the virus from the border into the local community.

If this is correct, then herd vaccination does not mean the same as herd immunity. Herd vaccination might only mean herd protection from severe illness.

It’s only one example, so I’m not sure how applicable it is across the board. And its unclear whether mildly ill vaccinated citizens will even bother doing a PCR to get a true reflection of what the vaccine is achieving in terms of spread.

Just seems to me some comments are overlooking the possible reality of vaccines and it’s impact on spread.

 

[serfty]

But I find it fascinating that the one government that has faced the most criticism in the media is the one that has to follow a vaguely democratic process rather than just saying it is so.

The ("most") criticism is generally based on a failed quarantine program that led to ~800 attributable deaths.

 

[drron]

A lot of the discussion is getting into ethical considerations.This has been actively discussed re covid.I follow a young Australian philosopher - well he is only in his 50s - Julian Savulescu.Some of his articles may be of interest.The first 2 are relevant to our border closure.

Are Immunity Passports a Human Rights Issue? | Practical Ethics

Written by Julian Savulescu A shorter version of this post appears in The Telegraph Imagine you are about to board a plane (remember that…) Authorities have reason to believe you are carrying a loaded gun. They are entitled to detain you. But they are obliged to investigate whether you have a...

blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk

“Carrying a Virus is Like Carrying a Loaded Gun” Says Oxford Professor

OXFORD Professor Julian Savulescu Says “Carrying a Virus is Like Carrying a Loaded Gun” The director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme that “carrying…

www.euroweeklynews.com

And then re vaccination.

Vaccine distribution ethics: monotheism or polytheism? - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Blog Posts Collection - BMJ Journals

By Alberto Giubilini, Julian Savulescu and Dominic Wilkinson. Pfizer has reported preliminary results that their mRNA COVID vaccine is 90% effective during phase III trials. The hope is to have the first doses available for distribution by the end of the year. Discussion has quickly moved to how...

blogs.bmj.com

Julian Savulescu & Sam Vanderslott debate the arguments for and against Mandatory COVID-19 vaccination - 3 Quarks Daily

3quarksdaily.com

 

[Flashback]

More Qantas job cuts, expected with the delays in reopening.

Parliament culture review launches; NSW ambulance officers strike over pay – as it happened

Sex discrimination commissioner set to report back with review’s recommendations by November; Qantas announces job cuts to international crew; experts alarmed at Covid vaccination rates. This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Cutting TA commission from 5% to 1% too.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The UK Health Secretary said today that 'the restrictions to freedom will be replaced by the protections of a vaccine'.

That makes sense and is an incentive.

The issue in Australia is that we don't have the widespread restrictions to freedom, so creating an incentive is more difficult.

 

[dajop]

Education is very important as to why you need to get the jab, and that needs to be done in droves by all leaders, politicians and celebrities. That is what is being done here in the UK.

.....

If you educate enough, you will have enough people take it.

Whilst I’m not in the UK I’ve seen a few of the ads, via TV streaming (use VPN to stream several UK shows) and other places online, and I wouldn’t say they seem that educational (and that’s a complement), but more aiming to nudge and influence behaviour. Education is almost irrelevant (not quite iit provided a base) but what is really needed, but something that will persuade hesitant people to get the vaccine (don’t need to worry about those who aren’t).

By contrast the Australian add is purely educational and not much else . I love the quote (from Simon Reynolds who developed the grim reaper AIDS campaign ) in this interview about the Australian Ad: that it “will fix an illness but it’s insomnia.”

 

[hb13]

Whilst I’m not in the UK I’ve seen a few of the ads, via TV streaming (use VPN to stream several UK shows) and other places online, and I wouldn’t say they seem that educational (and that’s a complement), but more aiming to nudge and influence behaviour. Education is almost irrelevant (not quite iit provided a base) but what is really needed, but something that will persuade hesitant people to get the vaccine (don’t need to worry about those who aren’t).

By contrast the Australian add is purely educational and not much else . I love the quote (from Simon Reynolds who developed the grim reaper AIDS campaign ) in this interview about the Australian Ad: that it “will fix an illness but it’s insomnia.”

There has been a lot of talk (we can call it education or nudging haha) as well on talk shows, radio shows etc whereby doctors and scientists are on explaining and educating us on the topic. It really is non-stop, but not in a bad way from my perspective.

I think the UK has absolutely butchered the response to COVID, it was absolutely disastrous, however, the vaccine rollout, seeing it first hand - has been amazing. The one thing you hear from everyone who has had a jab here about hoe efficient and easy it is - and I felt that way when I got my jab.

 

[drron]

And how much of this do you see reported in the media.The AMA together with Specialist medical colleges urging vaccination.

Professional bodies urge Australians to get vaccinated against COVID-19

Specialist medical colleges and the AMA made a joint public statement about the COVID vaccination being the only pathway back to a more normal life.

ama.com.au

Prepare Australia before opening up to the world

The AMA put the focus this week on to readying Australia before thinking about opening international borders, calling for stronger quarantine capability and concerted efforts to complete the national vaccination program.

ama.com.au

 

[mrs.dr.ron]

Well vaccinated Americans can travel to Europe =

Several E.U. Countries Launch Digital COVID Certificates for Travelers

Vaccinated Americans can use the digital COVID certificate to visit Europe this summer, following a year of travel restrictions.

www.cntraveler.com

 

[Lynda2475]

Talk of penalizing the unvaccinated by locking them out of society or taxing them extra is way premature.

70% of Australian (those aged under 50 except a few workers or very unwell people) are currently ineligible to get any vaccine, because we don't have sufficient doses of Pfizer for them. It is absurd to talk of punishing people for not getting vaccinated when they don't have access.

Threatening people or trying to force them to take a AZ (when other comparable countries have abandoned it or severely limited its use to over 60s) wont achieve anything, it will only create more resistance.

 

[levelnine]

like i have said many times on here, i plan on getting the vaccine when it is available to me, I just do not think it should be forced on people to the point of them losing things like benefits , losing freedoms.

Why not? They are a danger to society — they are potential carriers of a life threatening virus. We place limits on people's freedoms for far less important causes — the payment of taxes, etc.

If you want the benefits that society brings (ie the ability to socialise in safe communal environments like restaurants, bars and theatres), you must accept the costs that this entails.

If you want to live a hermit life off the grid, I'm perfectly fine for those people to choose not to be vaccinated.

So where is my choice ? Or maybe you don’t care and I’m simply a threat to you.

You clearly didn't read my post.

The entire point of my post was to protect people like you. People who cannot get the vaccine due to health issues are threatened by anti-vaxxers (ie people who can get the vaccine, but choose not to for whatever esoteric reason) because they impede our ability to reach herd immunity, which is what protects people like you.

 

[dajop]

There has been a lot of talk (we can call it education or nudging haha) as well on talk shows, radio shows etc whereby doctors and scientists are on explaining and educating us on the topic. It really is non-stop, but not in a bad way from my perspective.

Have no doubt that this is working - UK have been pioneers in that area. It sounds sensible that the right medium is being used for education/explanation - ie. the talk shows, radio shows etc, and using the ad campaigns for the behavioural nudges.

In Australia, it seems the ad campaign is almost solely focussed on education. Hopefully that will change, particularly now as availability of vaccines is slowly but surely increasing.

Here in Singapore, the government have put out a lot of factual information, but seem to have recognised that people
"get it" (yes yes we know, the government and scientists think vaccines are safe and important) - but are being cautious ("wait and see") before getting their jab, so the campaigns have focussed on the wait and see part.

I raise the difference between education and nudges as part of my role, we trying and instil the adoption of certain (safe) behaviours amongst end customers, which are large in number. 95% of people will suggest the solution is we "need more training" , whereas after years of "training" people have the knowledge, but they don't have the compelling desire to act on that knowledge. That's where nudges and campaigns like you are seeing in UK are absolutely critical, not sure why Australia is so far behind on this for vaccinations, various states over years have run excellent campaigns designed to change behaviour (particularly regarding road safety). Maybe the federal government hasn't, so that's why its lagging.

 

[Lynda2475]

If you want the benefits that society brings (ie the ability to socialise in safe communal environments like restaurants, bars and theatres), you must accept the costs that this entails.

Currently there are only limits on some work places (flu shot for some aged care and hospital workers) and child care (no jab no play) but there isn't anything at the scale you are proposing i.e. locking people out of supermarkets or denying people access to Medicare (which they pay taxes for). The current jab rules are to stop direct close interactions with (i.e. touching) vulnerable people, they stop them working in a small number of occupations and deny some kids a pre-school experience but they dont stop people from being able to participate in society as a whole.

Our vaccination rate for childhood diseases is good in Australia, but we don't require people who immigrate here as adults to get or tourists to show proof of having had vaccine. That is why we still see measles cases each year, and whopping cough reappears etc. The only disease that vaccination has truly made disappear is small pox.

Even if 80% of people are vaccinated it wont mean zero cases. Some vaccinated people wont generate any (or very little) immune response and vaccinated people can still get covid and spread covid. The point of encouraging vaccination was to reduce severe illness and death, not to have no covid.

Most of the country (approx. 70%) are currently not yet eligible for a vaccine - introducing any restrictions/benefits before they have all been offered a safe vaccine is ridiculous.

You want Australia to force perfectly healthy people who currently have zero exposure to covid to take a risk of a problematic vaccine just so you feel better. There isn't some eminent covid flood gate about to open, borders will be closed until we have been able to offer everyone a vaccine. And even when they open, there will still be either vaccination or quarantine requirements.

Incentives will provide better outcomes than punitive fines/restrictions, people have completely ignored and not paid fines issued for not wearing a mask.

The cost of employing a huge workforces to constantly police who has and hasn't been vaccinated would cost more than just ordering more of the preferred vaccine types and giving those who are hesitant a choice to avoid AZ.

Finally all this overaction is based on newspapers polls re what people will and won't do, if the last few elections have taught us anything it is that polls are rarely right - the sample is too small, the questions asked are biased.

Chill and make your argument about what further action is needed, after everyone has been given the opportunity to get a vaccine.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why not? They are a danger to society — they are potential carriers of a life threatening virus. We place limits on people's freedoms for far less important causes — the payment of taxes, etc.

If you want the benefits that society brings (ie the ability to socialise in safe communal environments like restaurants, bars and theatres), you must accept the costs that this entails.

Yet there was outrage that an Aussie citizen defying a travel ban from a high risk country - and putting everyone on the plane via a connecting point at risk - could be subject to any sort of penalty?

Unvaccinated people should only be a risk to a tiny proportion of society who cannot be vaccinated.

 

[Lynda2475]

Unvaccinated people should only be a risk to a tiny proportion of society who cannot be vaccinated.

And generally those people (i.e. someone undergoing Chemo) would be taking care to avoid close contact with strangers etc anyway. I have family members who are imuno compromised and they dont expect the rest of the country to be restricted just because they have an elevated risk.

We have never forced 100% of the population to get a flu vax (only those working with vulnerable people) and the flu killed 705 people in 2019. @levelnine why not also demand the millions of Aussies who didnt get a flu vax last year or this year be forced to stay home and be fined, the flu spreads more readily than covid.

 

[Miss bick]

Most of the country (approx. 70%) are currently not yet eligible for a vaccine - introducing any restrictions/benefits before they have all been offered a safe vaccine is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone is suggesting action before all have been offered a safe vaccine, most of the comments are directed at those who won't have a vaccine.

 

[Miss bick]

perfectly healthy people who currently have zero exposure to covid

How can you know this for certain, I wasn't aware covid is visible to the naked eye.

 

[Miss bick]

We have never forced 100% of the population to get a flu vax (only those working with vulnerable people) and the flu killed 705 people in 2019. @levelnine why not also demand the millions of Aussies who didnt get a flu vax last year or this year be forced to stay home and be fined, the flu spreads more readily than covid.

Good idea, then people in my family won't be exposed as often each year. I don't suffer from the flu, but I still have the flu vaccine each year so that I can avoid being a carrier to others. Yeh, yeh, I know, I'm a regular saint..

I'm glad you are liberal in your thinking, that all can expose your immunocompromised relatives to risk is ok.
But it's almost time to start quoting Hitler in this thread....

 

[Lynda2475]

'm glad you are liberal in your thinking, that all can expose your immunocompromised relatives to risk is ok.

Its not about wanting to expose them, its about being realistic that there is no way 100% will get vaccinated and understanding that we have to learn to live with a certain level of covid.

Not getting vaccinated is not the same as wandering around the community spreading covid. None of us were vaccinated last year, and most Australians dont know anyone who has had covid in Australia (i know a few overseas) because cases so low here outside of returned travelers in HQ.

I will get vaccinated when I can access Pfizer/Moderna, but if an over 50 who is denied access to an MRNA option chooses not to get AZ im ok with them waiting to get something else. No one wants to be the 1 in 200k who get a blod clot from AZ nor the unluckier 1 in 6 of those that dies from it.

Some of you think its better to heavily restrict huge swathes of the population for the benefit of a very small cohort who will be at risk from many things not just covid (the imuno compromised need to worry about exposure to measles, flu, chicken pox etc etc too). Its about balance, we tolerate other viruses/diseases circulating at low volume, we need to do the same for Covid (Covid is not Ebola).

I get flu vax every year too, but I would never force someone else to get it if they dont want to and aren't working in aged care or with imuno compromised people. It is their choice whether they want to risk getting sick, if they get flu make them WFH or take leave until recovered, no need to fine them, that wont make them more willing to be a pin cushion.