Predictions of when international flights may resume/bans lifted

[MooTime]

Its less a view, and more fact. The lockdown brigade seems to be of the opinion that nobody dies. Ever. This is a mindset that needs to change before our country can move on from this.

yep ok, you produce facts as you stated the following.

"yet all we've had are three deaths, two of whom were well above the expected age of passing so really don't count for much"

I'd beg to differ that those families of those 3 dead DO count for VERY much.
So anybody passing away above the expected age doesn't count for much. oh my.

I find that concept very ordinary.

 

[mviy]

We don't know the answers to key questions:
Why the people who died weren't vaccinated despite being eligible?
What co-morbidities they had - were they expected to die soon from other health conditions?

We can only lockdown for so long to protect people who won't protect themselves. As to when we reach that point of no longer locking down to protect those who won't protect themselves is an interesting question.

Before we see a significant improvement in international travel restrictions we will need to drop the zero-covid mindset. People die from the flu and we don't lockdown a city because of that.

 

[MooTime]

We don't know the answers to key questions:
Why the people who died weren't vaccinated despite being eligible?
What co-morbidities they had - were they expected to die soon from other health conditions?

We can only lockdown for so long to protect people who won't protect themselves. As to when we reach that point of no longer locking down to protect those who won't protect themselves is an interesting question.

Before we see a significant improvement in international travel restrictions we will need to drop the zero-covid mindset. People die from the flu and we don't lockdown a city because of that.

None of those bits of information is relevant to say someone's life doesn't count for much, some people are just so selfish & care factor zero for anybody else is just deplorable & them themselves shouldn't be part of our community.

 

[dajop]

Its less a view, and more fact. The lockdown brigade seems to be of the opinion that nobody dies. Ever. This is a mindset that needs to change before our country can move on from this.

But whilst people always die, what has been stark about Covid (in the absence of effective lockdowns and other controls) is that is is not normal for significant numbers of medical personnel treating sick people to die of the same thing as the people they are treating. That has happened with Covid, and continues to happen in places like India and Indonesia.

There's also a view that this is not much difference to the normal flu, often comparing annual flu deaths to Covid deaths. But these are almost always comparing the two whilst omitting the fact that the deaths due to Covid take place despite the border controls, mask wearing, sporadic lockdowns and the like, all controls that were completely absent prior to 2020. Comparing apples and oranges.

I think the conversation about a number of people continuing to die from Covid can only really be had once vaccination rates hit levels in the 70s. Before then I think we'll find controls are still needed to prevent health systems being overrun.

 

[drron]

yep ok, you produce facts as you stated the following.

"yet all we've had are three deaths, two of whom were well above the expected age of passing so really don't count for much"

I'd beg to differ that those families of those 3 dead DO count for VERY much.
So anybody passing away above the expected age doesn't count for much. oh my.

I find that concept very ordinary.

So I promote that "very ordinary concept" as well.
Many who die in their 80s and 90s are not unhappy with the prospect of death.Some in fact looking forward to it.And a large percentage of families express relief that their family member no longer has to suffer.Most of those dying with covid have other conditions which could cause death.I do know that those who died from the NWRH outbreak were all over 80 and had at least 3 co morbidities.

And a fellow I am looking after now.96,no family left at all.wheelchair bound.At least 4 conditions that could cause death.We had a discussion re death this morning.He stated my only wish is that I don't wake up one morning.But I have had a good and happy life with a wonderful marriage and lot's of travel with my wife.A job I loved and an interest I was able to develop to the fullest and it also brought joy to many others.

So his death he does not fear and sees no reason for anyone else to feel sad for him.
We are all different and what may seem indifference to some may be seen to be compassionate by others.

 

[MooTime]

So I promote that "very ordinary concept" as well.
Many who die in their 80s and 90s are not unhappy with the prospect of death.Some in fact looking forward to it.And a large percentage of families express relief that their family member no longer has to suffer.Most of those dying with covid have other conditions which could cause death.I do know that those who died from the NWRH outbreak were all over 80 and had at least 3 co morbidities.

And a fellow I am looking after now.96,no family left at all.wheelchair bound.At least 4 conditions that could cause death.We had a discussion re death this morning.He stated my only wish is that I don't wake up one morning.But I have had a good and happy life with a wonderful marriage and lot's of travel with my wife.A job I loved and an interest I was able to develop to the fullest and it also brought joy to many others.

So his death he does not fear and sees no reason for anyone else to feel sad for him.
We are all different and what may seem indifference to some may be seen to be compassionate by others.

wow what a tangent you went off on.

my initial & only point I made was to reference someone's life as not counting for much as was posted, is terrible & shocking thing to say.

Not sure what you post is about?? Do you agree with that posters quote?

 

[N860CR]

yep ok, you produce facts as you stated the following.

"yet all we've had are three deaths, two of whom were well above the expected age of passing so really don't count for much"

I'd beg to differ that those families of those 3 dead DO count for VERY much.
So anybody passing away above the expected age doesn't count for much. oh my.

I find that concept very ordinary.

Wow. Real mature. I may be promoting a "very ordinary concept" in being realistic, but at least I’m not blind.

Try reading things in the context of the argument. Two 90 year olds dying do not count as COVID deaths as any number of things could have taken them down. 90 is well beyond life expectancy. Clearly, you’ve never had anything to do with aged care.

I’m terribly sorry for considering the millions of others who are having their lives ruined by this insane “COVID zero” mantra that people like yourself are pushing. I’m sure you could not care less about them.

 

[MooTime]

Wow. Real mature. I may be a “pig” for being realistic, but at least I’m not blind.

Try reading things in the context of the argument. Two 90 year olds dying do not count as COVID deaths as any number of things could have taken them down. 90 is well beyond life expectancy. Clearly, you’ve never had anything to do with aged care.

I’m terribly sorry for considering the millions of others who are having their lives ruined by this insane “COVID zero” mantra that people like yourself are pushing. I’m sure you could not care less about them.

I read & re-read your original post numerous times....It's context is rather brutal in that 3 deaths don't count for much.

Nothing to do with considering millions or billions of others, your statement is typically inconsiderate & of someone who thinks only of themselves, please don't claim your thinking of others.

Other's deaths don't count for much, you stated it, covid, hit but a bus or anything, to say other's lives don't count for much cos of their age is just poor, extremely poor.

Of course your realistic & I'm not, more of a typical response from someone like you.

I said nothing of the like & neither did you about deaths related to covid like your last post did. Keep digging trying to get out of foot in mouth disease.

You wouldn't know what I'm pushing or that I'm pushing anything, you just keep pushing that shovel burying those bodies that don't count for much.

 

[N860CR]

I read & re-read your original post numerous times....It's context is rather brutal in that 3 deaths don't count for much.

Nothing to do with considering millions or billions of others, your statement is typically inconsiderate & of someone who thinks only of themselves, please don't claim your thinking of others.

Other's deaths don't count for much, you stated it, covid, hit but a bus or anything, to say other's lives don't count for much cos of their age is just poor, extremely poor.

Of course your realistic & I'm not, more of a typical response from someone like you.

I said nothing of the like & neither did you about deaths related to covid like your last post did. Keep digging trying to get out of foot in mouth disease.

You wouldn't know what I'm pushing or that I'm pushing anything, you just keep pushing that shovel burying those bodies that don't count for much.

Sure. You’re right. Let’s continue down this path and shut down the country because of the deaths of people who could have died from any number of other issues, including falling out of bed. It’s very clear that you have no concept of life and death.

Here’s two examples that I was personally involved in. 88 year old man in a nursing home who died after falling down the fire stairs. Fire door was propped open by a Filipino aged care worker. Coronial inquest recommended criminal charges. Said staff member had already returned to the Philippines. Nothing done. No media attention.

85 year old woman who lived independently. Bowel blockage and admitted to hospital. ICU refused to accept her following surgery as they anticipated her occupying the ward for too long. Plan was to allow her to die comfortably. Professor pushed and completed the surgery on the basis of education. Regained consciousness immediately after surgery, out of ICU within 24 hours. Would have obviously died otherwise, however an 86 year old was considered not worth having in ICU.

This is life. Until people start to accept this, we’re never moving forward, because people will die of COVID for as long as we are in this world.

Do you care about the tens of millions who are expected to die this year of starvation because of cut supply chains? Have you been posting attacks on social media because of the millions starving right now in Ethiopia? I doubt it.

 

[MooTime]

Sure.

Straight thru to the keeper.

 

[N860CR]

That has happened with Covid, and continues to happen in places like India and Indonesia.

We’re not India. We’re not Indonesia. I can’t imagine we’ve ever before compared our incredibly highly funded health system to that of two of the worlds poorest countries.

Post automatically merged: Jul 19, 2021

Straight thru to the keeper.

Yep. Expected level of maturity from somebody who cannot grasp a basic concept. Jump on Facebook and join “lockdown lovers” or “coronacrazies”. You’ll fit in far better.

 

[JB expat]

All lives count, all deaths matter. But Australia cannot remain isolated. People who chose to remain unvaccinated after they have the opportunity to do so (and do not have a true medical reason for declining), have to own their decision and the consequences. The country cannot continue this isolation mentality after there is full vaccine supply/opportunity to vaccinate. Death is sad, in some cases tragic - but where people are making a choice that leads to their death, it is THEIR choice and not everyone else's responsibility.

 

[N860CR]

All lives count, all deaths matter. But Australia cannot remain isolated. People who chose to remain unvaccinated after they have the opportunity to do so (and do not have a true medical reason for declining), have to own their decision and the consequences. The country cannot continue this isolation mentality after there is full vaccine supply/opportunity to vaccinate. Death is sad, in some cases tragic - but where people are making a choice that leads to their death, it is THEIR choice and not everyone else's responsibility

Absolutely. Just as the lives ruined by these constant lockdowns count. They’re the victims nobody seems to care about.

We are quite fortunate with this virus. It’s incredibly mild. It seems to only be fatal in those beyond life expectancy or who are already sick. And all of those people have now been offered vaccines. That’s the reopening target.

 

[nickykim]

Absolutely. Just as the lives ruined by these constant lockdowns count. They’re the victims nobody seems to care about.

We are quite fortunate with this virus. It’s incredibly mild. It seems to only be fatal in those beyond life expectancy or who are already sick. And all of those people have now been offered vaccines. That’s the reopening target.

Sorry but there is still at least a month before that is true for the 1b group due to the timelines in getting approval from third parties prior to first vax, then 12 weeks to second shot. I was pretty on top of getting the approval request off to Roche in Switzerland, the getting vax at right point of chemo cycle to avoid false positive CT scans. My second vax is scheduled for this Thursday, this is the absolute earliest it was possible to be completely vaccinated. Other patients will have had slightly different timelines, but we are still only just getting to period for second vax for those willing but with timing restrictions.

 

[jonboixxx]

It’s incredibly mild. It seems to only be fatal in those beyond life expectancy or who are already sick.

I don't think that's true, is it?

 

[mviy]

Sorry but there is still at least a month before that is true for the 1b group due to the timelines in getting approval from third parties prior to first vax, then 12 weeks to second shot. I was pretty on top of getting the approval request off to Roche in Switzerland, the getting vax at right point of chemo cycle to avoid false positive CT scans. My second vax is scheduled for this Thursday, this is the absolute earliest it was possible to be completely vaccinated. Other patients will have had slightly different timelines, but we are still only just getting to period for second vax for those willing but with timing restrictions.

I have some friends in 1B and some have already had both shots, though they didn't need to get any approvals to get vaccinated.

My understanding which may be wrong is that the people that died haven't had any vaccine dose? Even one dose would make a big difference to mortality, though two would obviously be a lot better.

Certainly in the next few months or so we'll reach the point where the entire vulnerable population that has been prioritised has had plenty of time to be fully vaccinated.

With 75% of over 70s having had their first dose we should have a significant majority of the over 70s fully vaccinated in the next few months or so.

With a decent level of protection for the vulnerable at some point the balance of risks have to tip in favour of beginning to ease restrictions.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I don't think that's true, is it?

It’s absolutely false

 

[roogirl]

It’s absolutely false

The problem with delta variant (and covid in general) is that it seems to be quite mild for most people. A small % have serious illness and death. And those people usually have a co morbidity or are aged. BUT it is also highly transmissible. So you can’t “let it rip” as that small % is of a very large number and everything gets overwhelmed quickly. (Think about it - 3 deaths from Sydney “outbreak” which still has a low number of cases - apply that maths to the 50k cases a day we have in the U.K. and pretend most people are unvaccinated. Not pretty.)

this is why vaccination is the only way out. There will still be illness and death, but it will be manageable. And that statement may be unpalatable from a individual perspective, but it’s the right one from a public health/political one.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The problem with delta variant (and covid in general) is that it seems to be quite mild for most people. A small % have serious illness and death. And those people usually have a co morbidity or are aged. BUT it is also highly transmissible. So you can’t “let it rip” as that small % is of a very large number and everything gets overwhelmed quickly. (Think about it - 3 deaths from Sydney “outbreak” which still has a low number of cases - apply that maths to the 50k cases a day we have in the U.K. and pretend most people are unvaccinated. Not pretty.)

this is why vaccination is the only way out. There will still be illness and death, but it will be manageable. And that statement may be unpalatable from a individual perspective, but it’s the right one from a public health/political one.

Yes as a Dr I completely agree with you.
At some point once we have enough of our population vaccinated we will open up, there will be cases and there will be deaths and that’s inevitable and also acceptable.

 

[mviy]

I think the view here from non-medicos such as myself is that there has to be a middle ground between what's being done now and being fully open. We've had no COVID deaths outside of NSW this year and had very few go through ICU outside of NSW this year (with the possible exception of the current outbreak in VIC) so we haven't been pushing hospitals anywhere close to their limits. We bought a heap of ventilators early on in the pandemic that mostly haven't had to be used.

So the cut to arrivals was not justified.

We should be able to do home quarantine now. People that caught COVID in Australia in much of the country are trusted to quarantine at home. Whereas someone who is fully vaccinated, has spent the past 14 days in a country with high vaccination rates, tested negative before departure and is highly unlikely to have COVID has to spend two weeks in a quarantine hotel and may catch COVID there from someone who is unvaccinated and if this is at the end of the quarantine period could potentially become an asymptomatic spreader.

The politics means that the sensible middle ground isn't being found, which is what is frustrating for so many here. We're several months or a year or two ahead of what the politicians consider acceptable for political reasons.