Qantas Club - Denied Access [QP member before CX flight]

[Reggie78]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Wonder how OP would feel if people flying on Tiger or Virgin got access to the QC before each flight.... that's essentially what is being said...

Buy QC membership, fly another competing airline. Yeah, that sound's like good business sense...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Seriously? I cannot argue with the impeccable logic of your position, but aren't you also being just a little bit pedantic. Isn't the core purpose of the Qantas Club to recognise and reward frequent flyer loyalty, and to thereby generate repeat business?

No. Paid Qantas club membership is not to reward loyalty. It is for economy class passengers who have not traveled enough to gain status and achieve lounge access and other benefits. Is it a form of 'golden hand-cuffs'? Absolutely. It ties you into flying Qantas, but it is not a recognition by the airline of your loyalty to them.

As to your argument as a whole... I am usually the first to hold an airline to account where they have acted incorrectly. But I am struggling to find sympathy with your argument that there should be a pop-up box warning you of no lounge access, or that you didn't know the rules. It was a fundamental error. Just not one on behalf of the airline.

 

[kamchatsky]

I think OP understands the QP rules after the discussion in this thread. However OP would prefer QF (agent) to advise her about the QP entry rules during booking. The confusion is that QF (travel agent) is NOT QF (airline) and there is a big Chinese wall between them. I can see average Joe can get this confused. To them they all belong to Qantas one way or another.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

However OP would prefer QF (agent) to advise her about the QP entry rules during booking.

But where do you draw the line? Would you extend the warnings to:

• your membership year is about to end, your upcoming booking will not earn you enough status credits to maintain silver/gold/platinum (QF knows I need 65 SCs to maintain gold, and they knew my upcoming flights would only give me 60SCs)
• your membership year is about to end, and you have not purchased a bundle fare on the selected JQ flight and you will not get a '~'

 

[kamchatsky]

But where do you draw the line? Would you extend the warnings to:

• your membership year is about to end, your upcoming booking will not earn you enough status credits to maintain silver/gold/platinum (QF knows I need 65 SCs to maintain gold, and they knew my upcoming flights would only give me 60SCs)
• your membership year is about to end, and you have not purchased a bundle fare on the selected JQ flight and you will not get a '~'

The line is always subjective. Customer wants the line to draw on their side. QF wants it to draw to their side. There are no right or wrong answers on where the line should be. QF cannot please everyone, BUT customers can always walk with their feet.

Or maybe QF travel agent should be called something else. I mean QF credit union is being renamed to QUDOS bank...

 

[Falcs]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

What I am saying is that I think the rule is a dud, a customer service faux pas, and a penny-pinching error in judgement on the part of Qantas. By all means, tell me if you disagree, but please stop saying that I don't understand the rule.

I don't think that Qantas has represented QP membership as "allowing lounge access for all flights sold by Qantas", and honestly you don't have to dig far to find that out.

Whether that rule is fair or not is another question, but I suspect you're probably in the minority with that view.

 

[TomVexille]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Not the CX portion !

Sorry, not CX, EK instead. But then again, I bought the QF code for the SCs.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

My point is that no one reads the entire terms and conditions document when they are booking a ticket. Nor do they read any of the multiple documents (eg Qantas Club access rules) which are referred to in the terms and conditions.

Here's your problem. Under contract law if you sign it (and yes a click is regarded as a signature) you're bound by it. It doesn't matter whether you chose to read it or not. Yes, you are expected to read all of a contractual document before you sign it. No one forced you into doing this. So to say "no one reads the entire terms and conditions document" is fundamentally incorrect.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Here's your problem. Under contract law if you sign it (and yes a click is regarded as a signature) you're bound by it. It doesn't matter whether you chose to read it or not. Yes, you are expected to read all of a contractual document before you sign it. No one forced you into doing this. So to say "no one reads the entire terms and conditions document" is fundamentally incorrect.

That is not a correct statement of the law regarding contract.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

That is not a correct statement of the law regarding contract.

You're invited to seek some advice on that, from an accredited contract law specialist Law Society member, other than my self.

But you could start here with an extract from a seminal work on the topic:

"The general rule is that a person who signs a document that is known by that person to contain contractual terms and to affect legal relations is bound by those terms, and it is immaterial that the person has not read the document: Toll (FGCT) Pty Ltd v Alphapharm Pty Ltd (2004) 219 CLR 165; 211 ALR 342 at 356, citing with approval L’Estrange v F Graucob Ltd [1934] 2 KB 394 at 403; see also Equuscorp Pty Ltd v GlenGallan Investments Pty Ltd (2004) 218 CLR 471; 211 ALR 101 at 108."

Look also at these quotes from various judges:

"In an ordinary case, where an action is brought on a written agreement which is signed by the defendant, the agreement is proved by proving his signature, and, in the absence of fraud, it is wholly immaterial that he has not read the agreement and does not know its contents."

"If a passenger signs and thereby binds himself to the terms of a contract of carriage containing a clause exempting the carrier from liability for loss arising out of the carriage, it is immaterial that the passenger did not trouble to discover the contents of the contract"

In my experience, and I've litigated a few matters in this area, the law couldn't be clearer.

As it's OT I wont comment further, but I do encourage you to seek some advice on the matter to help develop your level of understanding on an important legal principle.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

You're invited to seek some advice on that, from an accredited Law Society member, other than my self.

But you could start here with an extract from a seminal work on the topic:

"The general rule is that a person who signs a document that is known by that person to contain contractual terms and to affect legal relations is bound by those terms, and it is immaterial that the person has not read the document: Toll (FGCT) Pty Ltd v Alphapharm Pty Ltd (2004) 219 CLR 165; 211 ALR 342 at 356, citing with approval L’Estrange v F Graucob Ltd [1934] 2 KB 394 at 403; see also Equuscorp Pty Ltd v GlenGallan Investments Pty Ltd (2004) 218 CLR 471; 211 ALR 101 at 108."

Look also at these quotes from various judges:

"In an ordinary case, where an action is brought on a written agreement which is signed by the defendant, the agreement is proved by proving his signature, and, in the absence of fraud, it is wholly immaterial that he has not read the agreement and does not know its contents."

"If a passenger signs and thereby binds himself to the terms of a contract of carriage containing a clause exempting the carrier from liability for loss arising out of the carriage, it is immaterial that the passenger did not trouble to discover the contents of the contract"

The law couldn't be clearer.

As it's OT I wont comment further, but I do encourage you to seek some advice on the matter.

And you have qualified your original statement by the following:

"The general rule is that a person...".

It may be a general rule, but there are various reasons why terms and conditions in a standard form contract may not be binding, or valid. Consumer law and a range of other laws may also overlay a particular contract's terms and conditions.

A condition in a contract excluding a carrier from all liability may not in fact be binding (it may be unlawful) and would turn on the facts of the case.

The reason we have a very busy court system is because there is often confusion about what the law is.

 

[opusman]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

You don't even have to delve into a contract, the access rules are displayed pretty prominently on the website: Eligibility and Access to The Qantas Club Lounges | Qantas

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

I don't think the OP is arguing that he should not have been allowed in, I think he is challenging QF to deliver lounge access on tickets purchased through QF when the next flight is not on QF metal or is a QF codeshare.

Personally I don't buy into this. QP membership is little different to PP membership when it comes to "loyalty". You pay for a product/service that is defined, "loyalty" does not come into it.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Nope, just the important ones... like do I get to use the Qantas Club lounge.

sooo it's all about you. The next passenger may think their baggage entitlement is important, while a third may want to know what Visas they need for MNL (if any) and yet another may want the weather forecast. seriously?

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

meh. it's the QANTAS Club for us prior to QANTAS flights. Yes, there a few extras like admission to AA clubs (does that still even exist) and maybe BA, but in general it's QF.

It's not the "Oneworld Club" which, if such a thing existed, would grant access.

It's irrelevant who sold the ticket. I've been offered QF flights by united.com when logged in as my UA Elite FF membership.. they don't tell me I can't use a lounge or whatever prior to those flights. Should I expect that if I book a ticket MEL-SYD-SFO (for example)?

I understand the angst, but really it's a bit much for the sales agent (in this case QF, but could have been zuji or UA or whoever) to decide to tell you what YOu think is important just for YOU. As I suggested above, other passengers will have different priorities, or know the rules, and be annoyed if they see dialogue boxes saying "oh by the way, you can't use the lounge before your CX flight with your current status."

You've learned a lesson and can decide to book with Philippine Airlines and go non stop next time, or on QF via SYD, or whatever.

 

[basso]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

The reason we have a very busy court system is because there is often confusion about what the law is.

Well hopefully the court system isn;t busy because people can't be bothered reading agreements that they have said they have read.

 

[basso]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

sooo it's all about you. The next passenger may think their baggage entitlement is important, while a third may want to know what Visas they need for MNL (if any) and yet another may want the weather forecast. seriously?

That's the thing - if you dredge through AFF you will find lots of examples of people saying that there should be a pop up about this, that or the other thing. Or if something is not mentioned in the first paragraph, AFFers dismiss it as being 'buried in the T&Cs'. Here's the thing people - not everything can be in paragraph 1, page 1.

 

[russ]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Here's your problem. Under contract law...

Who cares? It's a commercial issue, not a legal issue.

 

[timster]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

I've never been refused access to the lounge before, so it was kind of a rude awakening after 22 years of membership.

I am no defender of QP, as many of my posts here will demonstrate. I believe that it is shadow of its former value. But I would venture to suggest that you have never tried to do what you tried to do in HKG before. I too was a QP member for over 20 years, and I do not recall any time in that period when what you tried to do was possible.

Qantas can book you on any Oneworld airline. But that doesn't get a QP member into QP.

Yes, the rules are complex, and many other QP rules have changed recently. But with respect, you have had 20 years to learn that one. Along with the one that says that QP is not the same as the Qantas Gold status you previously enjoyed.

In simple terms, if Qantas offered the same lounge access to QP, what would be the point of people paying QF the considerably more money it takes to reach Gold ?

If you want to maximize your use of QP, you need to choose your flights very carefully, or look elsewhere (as I did). As others pointed out, QP "locks you into" QF. With the loss of QP privileges in recent years, that is no longer wise for many people IMHO.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: Qantas Club Lounge - Denied Access

Who cares? It's a commercial issue, not a legal issue.

The customer was given the service they were entitled to....