Qantas / Emirates tie up (Partnership inc. Codeshare, Status)

[yohy?!]

Given the current approach of no investment to QFi it would seem likely that any 777s would go to JQi

 

[medhead]

I rest my case, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Now if the A380 and 787's had of been delivered on time...

You haven't really proven you case. Hindsight tells us it was a blunder. That competitors reacted to the situation and got 777 tells us it was an entirely predictable blunder, i.e. in foresight.

Am I the only one who thinks the move to cancel the firm 787s is a bit like someone using the house deposit to pay the rent, I suppose the future is renting with the option of housemates who you may not have liked in the past, and perhaps in the future?

No

 

[ajw373]

If Qantas management over the past 6 years had reacted to the situation like their competitors did......

They did actually hence the large fleet of A330's in Qantas colours (larger than the first planned). Aircraft that are a perfect size for the local Asian routes. They also have the 747-400ER's which were a natural fit for the America's. The airlines who topped up with 777's already had them in their fleet, so wouldn't not have been an easy nor 'cheap' option for Qantas. They would have ended up with a small fleet of niche market aircraft, whereas the A330's were add ons to what they already had and the 747's a variation to an existing type.

In your earlier post you talked about what's available now, simple fact is there is nothing available now until 2017 regardless of who or what you chose.

Am I the only one who thinks the move to cancel the firm 787s is a bit like someone using the house deposit to pay the rent, I suppose the future is renting with the option of housemates who you may not have liked in the past, and perhaps in the future?

I was actually talking about what was available in terms of product not production slots. With the 787 cancellation though I reckon there is a little bit more at play and guess in the fullness of time all will become clear.

 

[ajw373]

You haven't really proven you case. Hindsight tells us it was a blunder. That competitors reacted to the situation and got 777 tells us it was an entirely predictable blunder, i.e. in foresight.

As I said in the post above as Qantas didn't have 777's in the fleet going to a small number of niche market 777's wouldn't have been sensible. They went for more A330's which regionally on the Qantas network are better, being slightly smaller and for long haul they had the 747-400ER which slots in well with the existing fleet. So not sure where they would have used 777 that were not already serviced by their fleet choice.

 

[markis10]

As I said in the post above as Qantas didn't have 777's in the fleet going to a small number of niche market 777's wouldn't have been sensible. They went for more A330's which regionally on the Qantas network are better, being slightly smaller and for long haul they had the 747-400ER which slots in well with the existing fleet. So not sure where they would have used 777 that were not already serviced by their fleet choice.

Does not explain why all their local competitors use a mix of both in most cases and have done so for a significant time. I have been a fan of the 777 for a long time and continually ask the question, if they dont suit Asian operations, then why do so many use them to Australia, in many cases replacing A330 ops???

 

[ajw373]

Does not explain why all their local competitors use a mix of both in most cases and have done so for a significant time. I have been a fan of the 777 for a long time and continually ask the question, if they dont suit Asian operations, then why do so many use them to Australia, in many cases replacing A330 ops???

Very simple actually. The airlines you speak of have large fleets so have economy of scale to make it worthwhile by having different types. A smaller airline like Qantas if they choose an aicraft to match specific routes would have small numbers of different types without the economy of scale that the larger airlines have. So for exmaple they might end up with 4 777-300ER's in a fleet of A330's. So yes Qantas runs some aircraft that are not ideal but from a whole of fleet perspective offer lower cost through economies of scale.

 

[markis10]

Very simple actually. The airlines you speak of have large fleets so have economy of scale to make it worthwhile by having different types .

Korean and Malaysian are two airlines I speak of that don't have larger fleets, not to mention VA, NZ and Royal Brunei, Air Austral etc etc who have little to no A330 international ops .

Will be interesting to see how the meshed network pans out on Thursday, it will be ironic to see QF codeshares on 777s to Asia come to fruition.

This post was done while a Thai 777 passed overhead, ironically.

 

[oz_mark]

Getting away from arguing over 777s

If you can't at least earn QFF points & sc's on EK then this whole thing will be a WOFTAM for most people!

If the whole thing turns out to be a simple codeshare agreement, then any one with QF status might need to consider just how this is going to impact them. Like, what are you going to do for a lounge in Dubai. How is seat selection going to work? How is priority check in going to work? What are redemptions going to be like?

 

[ajw373]

Korean and Malaysian are two airlines I speak of that don't have larger fleets, not to mention VA, NZ and Royal Brunei, Air Austral etc etc who have little to no A330 international ops .

Will be interesting to see how the meshed network pans out on Thursday, it will be ironic to see QF codeshares on 777s to Asia come to fruition.

This post was done while a Thai 777 passed overhead, ironically.

Korean has over 30 777's and over 20 A330's

NZ has NO A330's

As for VA case in point actually of how having a small fleet of niche aircraft is not so good. As they found out running their 777's to Asia was not good and they were far to big for domestic. So they were left with the US where the model of 777 they have is ideal and a growing number of A330's domesticity and if the rumours are anything to go regionally too. Result cancellation of remainder of 777 order, new orders for A330.

Besides reading your reply think you have missed my point which is having a MIX with small numbers is not good. Airlines like Korean which you mention have numbers of both and the other airlines you mention like Qantas just one type, beit 777 or A330.

 

[markis10]

I noticed you missed the two Malay operators which I referenced, the fact is both large and small mix operators are running B777s to Australia as are operators with a comparable mix to QF. And I would not call HKT a good example of a 777 asian destination as VA proved, it's was a BG afterthought rather than a strategic initiative ( no pun intended).

 

[markis10]

And for those wondering why we are talking 777, it's expected that Thursday will not only see the possibility of 777 codeshares, but the gifting of 777 slots to QF from EK.

 

[browski]

Getting away from arguing over 777s



If the whole thing turns out to be a simple codeshare agreement, then any one with QF status might need to consider just how this is going to impact them. Like, what are you going to do for a lounge in Dubai. How is seat selection going to work? How is priority check in going to work? What are redemptions going to be like?

For those Qantas Frequent Flyers whose travel is more heavily weighted towards International, then I suspect that Emirates Skywards FF program will suddenly appear more attractive...............which will solve that particular problem for those that convert over.

 

[ajw373]

I noticed you missed the two Malay operators which I referenced, the fact is both large and small mix operators are running B777s to Australia as are operators with a comparable mix to QF. And I would not call HKT a good example of a 777 asian destination as VA proved, it's was a BG afterthought rather than a strategic initiative ( no pun intended).

Ok lets look at MAS. Again sizeable fleets of both A330's (20) and 777's. (17). Not sure what the 2nd Malay operator you are refering to is, but assume Royal Brunei, which only has 777's and is a tiny airline.

As for VA their operations actually show exactly what I am getting at. Here is an airline that needs a particular sized and ranged aircraft for their routes to LA, but needed a minimum of aircraft to make it work. So they tried to use spare capacity elsewhere and due to the size found that wouldn't work. They are left with an aicraft that is good for one set of routes and that's it. Of course they could have gain economies by ordering smaller 777's for domestic activities however they would have been way too big. So enter the A330, perfect for domestic and pretty capable for regional flying. I bet you right now if Virgin had their way they wouldn't be operating a fleet of just 5 777's with a growing sized fleet of A330's. Of course that would mean they wouldn't be able to serve LA, but having a small isolated fleet is not good.

As for Qantas they had a sizeable fleet of 747's and a growing fleet of A330 with A380's and 787's on order. Now of course an aircraft like the 777-300ER would be ideal for routes to America but wouldn't have made sense because they didn't operate any other 777's, so got the 747-400ER instead. However take an airline like Air France for example big existing fleet of 777's so adding a smaller number of niche market a/c like the 777-300ER is not an issue.

 

[Danger]

Emirates, Qantas to join forces
Geoffrey Thomas (reporting from Seattle), The West Australian, 1 September 2012, p. 14 (metro edition).

Qantas and the world's biggest international airline Emirates will announce next week a major alliance that will give the Australian carrier's passengers unprecedented access to many destinations in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

The airlines remain silent on the deal but sources in the US have confirmed the much-heralded union of two of the airline industry's most high-profile brands.

The alliance will give Qantas' loss-making international business a big boost.

It is expected that Qantas will pull out of Frankfurt and may lease some of its London landing slots to Emirates, while the Australian carrier will code-share on Emirates flights from Perth, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to Dubai and beyond.

Qantas serves just London and Frankfurt while Emirates flies to 32 European destinations.

Emirates announced recently it was going to increase flights from Perth from two to three a day next year and use the giant 500-seat A380.

It will also code-share on many Qantas domestic flights, which is expected to boost tourism.

Code-sharing is common in the airline industry and allows airlines to offer passengers flights and fares to destinations the carriers do not serve themselves by taking seats on the partner's services.

With Qantas code-sharing on Emirates flights to Europe, it is understood Qantas will boost flights to the US with Emirates sharing on those flights [emphasis added].

Passengers will be able to "earn and burn" frequent flyer points on both airlines.

Emirates is not expected to take any equity in Qantas but the Dubai-based airline may join the oneworld alliance, which also includes British Airways, Cathay Pacific and American Airlines [emphasis added].

Qantas reported last week that its international division lost $450 million for the year ended June 30, plunging the airline to a $244 million loss - its first since privatisation in 1995.​

The two parts I've emphasised above I find very intriguing, particularly the suggestion of EK joining oneworld. In fact, the article goes in the opposite direction to many articles that have suggested it could spell the end for QF in oneworld.

 

[TheInsider]

I don't understand this 'sources in the US' part, why would the US really care?

 

[chrisb]

I don't understand this 'sources in the US' part, why would the US really care?

There's rumours of QF taking on EK 777 orders.

I'm just assuming Geoffry was fed info from QF. He seems to be part of their PR machine, and i'm sure this will boost the share price.

 

[QF1]

I am now wondering whether Qantas will have any international flights at all. With JQ already taken over many of its profitable routes and with EK into the seen..it will be like Virgin, having a few flights to the US???

 

[k3nnis]

Is it very possible for QF to be out of Oneworld? If so, does that mean MH might not be in Oneworld since QF sponsored them???

 

[oz_mark]

And for those wondering why we are talking 777, it's expected that Thursday will not only see the possibility of 777 codeshares, but the gifting of 777 slots to QF from EK.

777s themselves are fine. A debate over whether or not QF should have ordered them in the past adds nothing to the thread.

 

[drron]

Is it very possible for QF to be out of Oneworld? If so, does that mean MH might not be in Oneworld since QF sponsored them???

Well the article Danger is quoting is saying EK may join OW.That would be a real game changer.
In the words of Chairman Kaga-"Bring it on"