Qantas Fleet

[eastwest101]

..... but it does reinforce why customers keep adding additional orders to their 777 backlog like NZ whos profit results are not shabby.

And the longer that backlog for the current B777 production line and the wait for the next gen B777-X delivery slots get, the less options there are for QFi to act in the future except to go broke. And, as good as the A330neo or the A350 may be - delivery slots for them are getting further out of reach as well..

Its the ultimate illogical circular argument from QF management that they won't commit to new equipment until profitability is restored, and the best way to profitability? You guessed it! New fuel efficient equipment, which they aren't allowed to have because they are not profitable...... all the while - their competitors are ordering and receiving new equipment, that brings their competitors costs down, and leaves QFi further exposed. I am guessing that QF management are also waiting for the exchange rate to go against them as well - so that the next gen aircraft from the USA or Europe will be more expensive?

Free tip to Qantas management - when you have painted yourself entirely into a corner, time to stop painting and start thinking.

 

[Mr_Orange]

There is a new generation B777 being released.

Indeed, the 777X.

 

[moa999]

A new 77W is $1.2-$1.6M per month on a lease, thats chickenfeed compared to opex. Looking at QF8, running a 77W versus a 744 sees the advantage to the 777 to the tune of 100-250K per flight before capital costs depending on load. Thats back of envelope stuff and far too simplistic but it does reinforce why customers keep adding additional orders to their 777 backlog like NZ whos profit results are not shabby.

$14-18m per year.
No chance - the thing would depreciate more than that

 

[markis10]

$14-18m per year.
No chance - the thing would depreciate more than that

Current ILFC leasing rates, non bulk deal:

Boeing 777-200LR
Wet Leasing Price: 17,200,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 16,700,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777-300ER
Wet Leasing Price: 18,100,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777 Freighter
Wet Leasing Price: 18,400,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


EK pay 1.2m per month for their 200LRs

You might find this link handy:

http://www.myairlease.com/resources/fleetstatus

 

[TomVexille]

Current ILFC leasing rates, non bulk deal:

Boeing 777-200LR
Wet Leasing Price: 17,200,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 16,700,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777-300ER
Wet Leasing Price: 18,100,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777 Freighter
Wet Leasing Price: 18,400,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


EK pay 1.2m per month for their 200LRs

You might find this link handy:

FleetStatus

Bargain!

 

[Mr_Orange]

Current ILFC leasing rates, non bulk deal:

Boeing 777-200LR
Wet Leasing Price: 17,200,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 16,700,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777-300ER
Wet Leasing Price: 18,100,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


Boeing 777 Freighter
Wet Leasing Price: 18,400,000$ per year for each unit
Dry Leasing Price: 17,900,000$ per year for each unit


EK pay 1.2m per month for their 200LRs

You might find this link handy:

FleetStatus

What's the difference between wet and dry leasing?

 

[markis10]

What's the difference between wet and dry leasing?

Wet leasing is aircraft, crew, maintenance etc included, dry is plan and you look after it all.

 

[TomVexille]

Wet leasing is aircraft, crew, maintenance etc included, dry is plan and you look after it all.

Does ILFC actually do crew? Or is their wet lease just maintenance and insurance ect?

 

[moa999]

So $200-500k per annum for crew and maintenance.

Just doesn't look right. I mean a full complement of pilots for an aircraft at say 12hrs a day x 365 days a year * 2 pilots / 900 max hours = Approx 10 pilots....

 

[markis10]

So $200-500k per annum for crew and maintenance.

Just doesn't look right. I mean a full complement of pilots for an aircraft at say 12hrs a day x 365 days a year * 2 pilots / 900 max hours = Approx 10 pilots....

ILFC don't quote crewing in wet, that's an additional hourly charge based on perceived usage.

 

[ajw373]

I think the time for QF to acquire 777s has passed. Many may argue that rejecting them a decade or more ago was wrong, but that was then. Right now QF seem to be faced with either continuing with their orders for the A380 to replace 747s, or they do a complete rethink and evaluate 787s and A350s. But I agree with ajw373, there is little point swapping 330s with 777s. In my view its time for QF to raise their sights and plan for the longer term with the new gen aircraft.

Indeed and historically many who lambast Qantas for lack of 777's seem to ignore the fact the model that suits Qantas the best vis the 777W is only a relatively new model.

The older models either didn't have the range for point to point long haul or too big for domestic/Asian runs so rightly or wrongly Qantas went A380 for long haul and the slightly smaller A330 for mid haul. Now considering te number of Asian airlines that operate A330's on the mid haul Asian runs Qantas made the right decision then. The A380 on the other hand right decision when ordered but of course the growth of ME airlines in particular maybe not the right choice in hindsight.

 

[eastwest101]

Indeed and historically many who lambast Qantas for lack of 777's seem to ignore the fact the model that suits Qantas the best vis the 777W is only a relatively new model.

Sorry, but entry into service of 1997 (for the B777-200ER) and 1998 (for the B777-300ER) are not really recent are they? Considering QF were involved in the design consultation stage as well, in my opinion that's long enough to realise that maybe the B777 is a suitable aircraft. Did you want Boeing to paint one up in QF colours and give them a free one? Its up to manufacturers to make aircraft and then airlines to choose the most suitable aircraft for themselves. Seeing nearly every major airline in the world order the B777 of all variations as quickly as they were announced would have given pause for thought for most competent fleet planners. Your points about the A380 stand - completely right aircraft but probably not for Qantas unless they covered every slot constrained airport in the world.

 

[RAM]

Indeed and historically many who lambast Qantas for lack of 777's seem to ignore the fact the model that suits Qantas the best vis the 777W is only a relatively new model.

The older models either didn't have the range for point to point long haul or too big for domestic/Asian runs so rightly or wrongly Qantas went A380 for long haul and the slightly smaller A330 for mid haul. Now considering the number of Asian airlines that operate A330's on the mid haul Asian runs Qantas made the right decision then. The A380 on the other hand right decision when ordered but of course the growth of ME airlines in particular maybe not the right choice in hindsight.

You miss a very important point - the A380 has a miniscule other cargo capacity. The B777-300ER has around 3x the capacity that the 747-400 has. When Q started retiring/scrapping the B747-400s they lost premium air cargo revenue as even the 747-400 had better cargo specs than the A380.

Guess who operates the largest B777 fleet?

The most common and successful variant is the 777-300ER with 490 delivered and 722 orders,[SUP][1][/SUP] and Emirates operates the largest 777 fleet, with 138 passenger and freighter aircraft as of July 2014.[SUP][8][/SUP]

But to take it from an unbiased source - have a look at the Emirates site: Our Fleet - Airbus 380-800 - Emirates SkyCargo
It shows:
- the A380-800 can carry an additional 8,000kgs of cargo in addition to a full passenger load
- the B777-300ER can carry an additional 23,000kgs of cargo in addition to a full passenger load

That makes a big difference to the break-even passenger load. Its reliability is also a strong selling (and profit) point:
Today's 777 operators enjoy a 99.3 percent dispatch reliability rate -- the highest amongst all twin-aisle airplanes in service today.

But the final word must go to Qantas' best friend:

"With the order for 150 777Xs, Emirates now has 208 Boeing 777s pending delivery, creating and securing jobs across the supply chain," said Emirates president Sir Tim Clark. "Today Emirates operates more than one in every 10 Boeing 777s aircraft built. We fly 138 of these efficient planes across the globe spanning the USA and Latin America in the west, to New Zealand and Japan in the East. The 777X will offer us operational flexibility in terms of range, more passenger capacity and fuel efficiency, and we look forward to inducting them into our fleet from 2020."

 

[moa999]

And does Emirates fly more A380s or 777s to Australia.
Think you will also find that the longer the flight the less cargo, due to fuel requirement and MTOW

 

[ajw373]

Sorry, but entry into service of 1997 (for the B777-200ER) and 1998 (for the B777-300ER) are not really recent are they? Considering QF were involved in the design consultation stage as well, in my opinion that's long enough to realise that maybe the B777 is a suitable aircraft. Did you want Boeing to paint one up in QF colours and give them a free one? Its up to manufacturers to make aircraft and then airlines to choose the most suitable aircraft for themselves. Seeing nearly every major airline in the world order the B777 of all variations as quickly as they were announced would have given pause for thought for most competent fleet planners. Your points about the A380 stand - completely right aircraft but probably not for Qantas unless they covered every slot constrained airport in the world.

I think you need to check you EIS dates for the 777-300ER it most certainly wasn't in the 90's try more like 2004. Your confusing the ER with the standard 300 which was EIS late 90's.

You mention other airlines ordering 777's but not Qantas but let's look at Qantas. At the time circa late 90's their network as it is today was short haul domestic, mid haul Asia and long haul to Europe and the US.

Domestically all 777's are too big indeed except for Perth even the smaller A330's are too big.

To Asia at the time Qantas was flying 767's the capacity jump to a 777-200 would have been too great and long haul the 300 not an option due to range and being smaller capacity compare to their 747's. Remember the was before the emergence of the ME carriers.

Sure the 777-300ER came in 2004 but at the time Qantas only needed a few if them for legs to the US so went 747-400er which gave them fleet commonality.

Long term they went A380 because their long haul routes are for the most part to slot constrained airports and they went A330 for mid haul Asia. Again right decision.

Of course things have changed with the ME carriers taking a lot if traffic to the west. But who would have thought in the 90's?

 

[ajw373]

Sorry, but entry into service of 1997 (for the B777-200ER) and 1998 (for the B777-300ER) are not really recent are they? Considering QF were involved in the design consultation stage as well, in my opinion that's long enough to realise that maybe the B777 is a suitable aircraft. Did you want Boeing to paint one up in QF colours and give them a free one? Its up to manufacturers to make aircraft and then airlines to choose the most suitable aircraft for themselves. Seeing nearly every major airline in the world order the B777 of all variations as quickly as they were announced would have given pause for thought for most competent fleet planners. Your points about the A380 stand - completely right aircraft but probably not for Qantas unless they covered every slot constrained airport in the world.

You miss a very important point - the A380 has a miniscule other cargo capacity. The B777-300ER has around 3x the capacity that the 747-400 has. When Q started retiring/scrapping the B747-400s they lost premium air cargo revenue as even the 747-400 had better cargo specs than the A380.

Guess who operates the largest B777 fleet?

The most common and successful variant is the 777-300ER with 490 delivered and 722 orders,[SUP][1][/SUP] and Emirates operates the largest 777 fleet, with 138 passenger and freighter aircraft as of July 2014.[SUP][8][/SUP]

But to take it from an unbiased source - have a look at the Emirates site: Our Fleet - Airbus 380-800 - Emirates SkyCargo
It shows:
- the A380-800 can carry an additional 8,000kgs of cargo in addition to a full passenger load
- the B777-300ER can carry an additional 23,000kgs of cargo in addition to a full passenger load

That makes a big difference to the break-even passenger load. Its reliability is also a strong selling (and profit) point:
Today's 777 operators enjoy a 99.3 percent dispatch reliability rate -- the highest amongst all twin-aisle airplanes in service today.

But the final word must go to Qantas' best friend:

"With the order for 150 777Xs, Emirates now has 208 Boeing 777s pending delivery, creating and securing jobs across the supply chain," said Emirates president Sir Tim Clark. "Today Emirates operates more than one in every 10 Boeing 777s aircraft built. We fly 138 of these efficient planes across the globe spanning the USA and Latin America in the west, to New Zealand and Japan in the East. The 777X will offer us operational flexibility in terms of range, more passenger capacity and fuel efficiency, and we look forward to inducting them into our fleet from 2020."

Assuming of course that there is enough freight coming and going to Australia to make it an issue.

Anyway not saying the 777 is a bad plane also not saying it is the wrong a/c for Qantas just pointing out that AT THE TIME the model that would have been of greatest use to Qantas was not available and they made other fleet decisions based on the market that existed at the time. The world if aviation especially in our part of the world has since changed.

 

[RAM]

And does Emirates fly more A380s or 777s to Australia.
Think you will also find that the longer the flight the less cargo, due to fuel requirement and MTOW

Interesting you should ask that.

Emirates have just released a huge number of new Europe return Y seats dep Dec 14 rtn Jan 15+ for just over $2,000.

Curiously enough these cover routes Q has dropped such as Europe via BKK for example. EK does it as a 3 hop trip to 'pool' passengers in Dubai for European connections.

So keeping the focus on Q then 2 daily flights from SYD vs the Emirates smorgasbord would suggest that 3 B777-300ER (2 LHR and 1 LGW) would be a huge revenue enhancement and the B777-300ER can easily make those legs with 3 times the extra cargo.

A point that rarely gets mentioned is that maintenance costs on Airbus metal are generally higher for any given metric.

 

[markis10]

And does Emirates fly more A380s or 777s to Australia.
Think you will also find that the longer the flight the less cargo, due to fuel requirement and MTOW

Emirates fly more 777s obviously, strange question

 

[SeatBackForward]

https://plus.google.com/104994557805021551585/posts/PYDPJTLxc8V

 

[maninblack]

And I still scratch my head at the way everyone blames AJ for QF's problems whilst the previous 'management' get a free pass.