QF announce non-stop Perth-London B787 Services

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

So you don't have anything to back up your statement then?

No. Only that it doesn't make commercial sense any other way. Airlines utilise their assets to make money. I'd be unhappy as a shareholder if was otherwise the case.

 

[Quickstatus]

There is really no other reason to pull an A380 out from one region and redeploy on another. QF most likely thinks it can make more money doing what it's doing than staying still and changing nothing.
I do agree that the EK JV has allowed it to be quite nimble.

......


Why does anyone in these forums need anything to back up anything. Most of what is said is really speculation anyway.
If anything said here needs to be "backed up" then nothing will be said.
Save for a few industry types we are all armchair contributors

 

[nlagalle]

There is really no other reason to pull an A380 out from one region and redeploy on another. Why does anyone in these forums need anything to back up anything. Most of what is said is really speculating anyway.
If anything said here needs to be "backed up" then nothing will be said.
Save for a few industry types we are all armchair contributors

As you said you are speculating..

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

No. Only that it doesn't make commercial sense any other way. Airlines utilise their assets to make money. I'd be unhappy as a shareholder if was otherwise the case.

Look at long term.. QF will most likely dump the A380 in favour of a twin. If they can operate from PER into Europe that far better in the long run that using DXB. They then have and AU port direct into Europe.

 

[Melburnian1]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

International loads are up...

The number of travellers internationally by air into and out of Oz has expanded dramatically in the past decade, so it would be surprising if that was not true for most airlines. There have been brand names that have disappeared into and out of Oz: Lauda Air was one; Australian Airlines (see above) was another.

But this extract from the BITRE's 2015 annual international air passengers report sums it up as to how QFi has essentially been a failure. Losing a net 5.3 percentage points on overall market share in a decade shows how the QF group has underperformed the market. If it wasn't for larger companies, government departments and authorities who seem to have some bias towards using QF, QF's market share would be even smaller.

What would QF's market share of all privately funded - by that I mean out of the traveller's own pocket - be? Surely it would be lower than the claimed percentage market share below.

VA is also a failure internationally, but that is off a much smaller base.

Extract from BITRE 'annual aviation activity (international) for 2015':

Compared to 2005, Qantas Airways’ share has decreased by 12.1 percentage points,
Emirates’ share has increased by 3.6 percentage points, Jetstar’s share has increased
by 9.0 percentage points (commenced international operations in December 2005),
Singapore Airlines’ share has decreased by 2.0 percentage points and Virgin Australia’s
share has increased by 5.3 percentage points. The decrease in share for the Qantas
group (Qantas Airways, Jetstar and Jetstar Asia in 2015 compared to Qantas, Australian
Airlines and Jetstar in 2005) was 5.3 percentage points.

 

[codash1099]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

There was a model previously... daily flights from all capital cities to SIN which combined into the principal flight onward to london. QF have gone back to the daily flights from most capitals to SIN, but no onward connection.

It's those onward connections, whether in QF metal or code share, that I really miss. Hell. I might even fly PER-SIN in the 737 if I could easily connect.

 

[Mattg]

Whilst not ideal to PEWR having a late evening dep ex MEL it is still feasible: again it would mean a full day at work and late evening to the airport. Some airlines already to this ex-MEL as there is no curfew. It would also mean that pax from other cities could also have a full working day. To me this is quite important whether travel is for work or holiday.

Personally I would have expected a ~10pm departure from PER to LHR, but I realise that QF may not have been able to get a slot at Heathrow for a ~8am arrival in LHR. It would still mean that QF9 departs MEL at around 7pm - not midnight.

If QF9 was to depart MEL at midnight, it would then depart from PER at around 3am. This would not be ideal for PER pax, nor would it allow for short connections from anywhere in Australia.

You also need to bear in mind that if QF9 departed from MEL at midnight then it would arrive in LHR around 1pm (as it does currently). So the return QF10 would not be able to depart at 1.30pm. It would likely not depart LHR until ~10pm, meaning a ~9pm arrival in PER and the PER-MEL flight would be a redeye. Then people would complain about that.

You can't please everyone...

 

[hutch]

Re: MEL to EU is now 2 stop?

Doing some dummy bookings:

When the new QF9 route takes over, passengers from MEL to the EU can only buy (online anyway) QF9 then BA codeshare backtrack into EU. Maybe the fares for the codeshare EK service ex MEL to EU have not yet been released???

Just tried a MEL-CDG booking. Both the BA option via LHR and the EK option via DXB are available. Noting that Emirates own website is only showing availability up to 24 March at the moment...so anything beyond that on QF.com is not likely to be the complete picture

 

[hutch]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Look at long term.. QF will most likely dump the A380 in favour of a twin. If they can operate from PER into Europe that far better in the long run that using DXB. They then have and AU port direct into Europe.

If you are looking longer term, QF has openly stated their desire is to fly east coast Australia to Europe when they are able to get a plane to do that.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

The number of travellers internationally by air into and out of Oz has expanded dramatically in the past decade, so it would be surprising if that was not true for most airlines. There have been brand names that have disappeared into and out of Oz: Lauda Air was one; Australian Airlines (see above) was another.

But this extract from the BITRE's 2015 annual international air passengers report sums it up as to how QFi has essentially been a failure. Losing a net 5.3 percentage points on overall market share in a decade shows how the QF group has underperformed the market. If it wasn't for larger companies, government departments and authorities who seem to have some bias towards using QF, QF's market share would be even smaller.

What would QF's market share of all privately funded - by that I mean out of the traveller's own pocket - be? Surely it would be lower than the claimed percentage market share below.

VA is also a failure internationally, but that is off a much smaller base.

Extract from BITRE 'annual aviation activity (international) for 2015':

Compared to 2005, Qantas Airways’ share has decreased by 12.1 percentage points,
Emirates’ share has increased by 3.6 percentage points, Jetstar’s share has increased
by 9.0 percentage points (commenced international operations in December 2005),
Singapore Airlines’ share has decreased by 2.0 percentage points and Virgin Australia’s
share has increased by 5.3 percentage points. The decrease in share for the Qantas
group (Qantas Airways, Jetstar and Jetstar Asia in 2015 compared to Qantas, Australian
Airlines and Jetstar in 2005) was 5.3 percentage points.

Of course QF would decline given the number of new entries into the market.. that's a given. How about you look over the last

 

[hutch]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

The number of travellers internationally by air into and out of Oz has expanded dramatically in the past decade, so it would be surprising if that was not true for most airlines. There have been brand names that have disappeared into and out of Oz: Lauda Air was one; Australian Airlines (see above) was another.

But this extract from the BITRE's 2015 annual international air passengers report sums it up as to how QFi has essentially been a failure. Losing a net 5.3 percentage points on overall market share in a decade shows how the QF group has underperformed the market. If it wasn't for larger companies, government departments and authorities who seem to have some bias towards using QF, QF's market share would be even smaller.

What would QF's market share of all privately funded - by that I mean out of the traveller's own pocket - be? Surely it would be lower than the claimed percentage market share below.

VA is also a failure internationally, but that is off a much smaller base.

Extract from BITRE 'annual aviation activity (international) for 2015':

Compared to 2005, Qantas Airways’ share has decreased by 12.1 percentage points,
Emirates’ share has increased by 3.6 percentage points, Jetstar’s share has increased
by 9.0 percentage points (commenced international operations in December 2005),
Singapore Airlines’ share has decreased by 2.0 percentage points and Virgin Australia’s
share has increased by 5.3 percentage points. The decrease in share for the Qantas
group (Qantas Airways, Jetstar and Jetstar Asia in 2015 compared to Qantas, Australian
Airlines and Jetstar in 2005) was 5.3 percentage points.

Which is all very well and good. But the market has changed from what it was like 10 & 20 years ago and probably will again in the next ten years. If QF tried to maintain market share, for the sake of maintaining market share, they would not be in existence. No way known that QF can compete against the amount of capacity which the ME3 is putting into Australia, with their lower cost base and geographical blessings.

I think Canada is good comparison... the ME3 are heavily restricted from flying to Canada and AC, following some labour changes is expanding... would AC be in that position today had the Canadian Government allowed the ME3 traffic rights into Canada like the Australian Government has (particularly for UAE... and open skies with Singapore)?

Personally, I think for the overall benefit to Australia, allowing the rights has been a good thing. But I think the reality is that QF's market share would also have to drop... but they are making money (atm at least).

 

[katiebell]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Of course QF would decline given the number of new entries into the market.. that's a given. How about you look over the last

I'm not sure there are more competitors, just different ones.

Qantas chose 1/d services in very large aircraft. Other carriers offered 2-4/day services in smaller aircraft (ie easier to fill/be profitable). QF could have had moe hubbing through SIN or HKG with smaller feeder aircraft. Qantas could have bought B777 which they helped design: more efficient than B747, capable of Nth America, UK & Europe (FAA ETOPS180 from the start: yes I do know CASA had to allow QF to do this too: the point is it is capable of the routes that the A380 flies and the B777 takes lots of cargo and has a longer range than the B787).

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

I'm not sure there are more competitors, just different ones

There are far more competitors and many with much deeper pockets. You only have to look at the ME3 and the airlines coming out of China. Many more competitors

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Look at long term.. QF will most likely dump the A380 in favour of a twin. If they can operate from PER into Europe that far better in the long run that using DXB. They then have and AU port direct into Europe.

Speculation but I agree.

 

[mviy]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Once QF can fly direct from the East Coast to LHR and JFK they'll probably dump the 787 services from Perth and move the 787 to fly from the East Coast to fly to the West Coast of the US and HNL, as well as SIN, HKG when there is insufficient demand for an A380 (if they're not ready to retire the A380 by then) and other destinations.

The challenge is to get a plane that can carry sufficient loads direct to LHR and JFK from the East Coast and do it at a price that doesn't impose too big a price premium over connecting.

This is what I suspect will happen in the long term.

 

[katiebell]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

There are far more competitors and many with much deeper pockets. You only have to look at the ME3 and the airlines coming out of China. Many more competitors

but no longer LH, KLM, Lauda, Virgin (most)BA, Al italia, JAT, Olympic and all the other European carriers that no longer fly here

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

but no longer LH, KLM, Lauda, Virgin (most)BA, Al italia, JAT, Olympic and all the other European carriers that no longer fly here

Yes but we have far more flights in and out. You haven't factored that into your equation. Look st how many EK run alone. Plus capacity. We have far more now than 30 years ago.

 

[katiebell]

I really like the concept of Aus-LHR without a ME stop and I'm glad we are back to BA code shares to Europe. I am just disappointed with the implementation: too few WCs, no PER Flounge, no F, Y seats too narrow, timing etc. Given QF places itself at the premium end of the market and with a premium price for this flight, the offerings on board are just not premium. Those who would fly a LCC to LHR may be more focussed on the $ cost only but most of my contacts (who fly Y) look a bit more widely. None will fly on this B787 not least because they have no desire to sit in a 17.2" seat.
I have also noticed the latest spin on the QF B787 web pages: "Our Economy cabin will feature 166 seats, arranged in a 3-3-3 formation. This arrangement will allow our customers to enjoy greater aisle access on board."
How is 3-3-3 greater aisle access? 3 from the aisle is as bad as it gets and the original 2-4-2 deisgn for the B787 was no more than 2 from the aisle" is much better…
Its great that QF are looking to innovate.I just wonder at the market research, especially given the almost uniform view here and elsewhere, on the new QF9/10

 

[katiebell]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Yes but we have far more flights in and out. You haven't factored that into your equation. Look st how many EK run alone. Plus capacity. We have far more now than 30 years ago.

My statement was about carriers and not seats on aircraft as per the post I replied to. QF was not restricted in increasing its seats ex Aus: they just didn't judge the market correctly to make it viable.

 

[mannej]

What BA codeshares are you talking about Katie?

Ps, you only ever have 2 seats between a window seat and an aisle on the 787. Same as the 747 and 380 is it not?