Upgrade confirmed in morning, but cancelled on check-in

[eastwest101]

we don't actually know that 'somebody' made a mistake. it could be a system error introduced by a system upgrade or something. We don't know if this is a one-off or ongoing.

it is possible, for all we know, that the 'improved' Qantas upgrade system (which was extended to allow upgrades as late as the gate) can also take those upgrades away (as late as the gate).

I am starting to think the same thing, the OP and the featheast could be experiencing a similar but not the same "bug" (just that featheast may not have had an Aus simcard/phone active to receive the confirmation, but also in featheast case when going to MMB he/she unfortunately couldn't screenshot it. But it is different to the OP's case where the QFF points were deducted, sms confimation happened and then a downgrade happened at the airport and the points were reimbursed and further points were added as a goodwill gesture by QF.)

Whether by human error - or by a bug in the upgrade software or notification procceses (QF will not or cannot tell us whats happening here but I would suspect that if this is not happening every day, then it may be a human being, either from checkin all the way up to yield management or IT fiddling with the software), so my (and others) advice is watch this space, to see if any further things like this happen, and screenshot any successful points upgrades on the spot. And be prepared for a long complaints proccess to kick into action.

Eventually someone will do this, get the upgrade, screenshot/email/sms confimation and then get downgraded at the airport or later and then they will eventually take QF to the cleaners for a large amount of points, and possibly other more expensive compensation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am starting to think the same thing, the OP and the featheast could be experiencing a similar but not the same "bug" (just that featheast may not have had an Aus simcard/phone active to receive the confirmation, but also in featheast case when going to MMB he/she unfortunately couldn't screenshot it. But it is different to the OP's case where the QFF points were deducted, sms confimation happened and then a downgrade happened at the airport and the points were reimbursed and further points were added as a goodwill gesture by QF.)

Whether by human error - or by a bug in the upgrade software or notification procceses (QF will not or cannot tell us whats happening here but I would suspect that if this is not happening every day, then it may be a human being, either from checkin all the way up to yield management or IT fiddling with the software), so my (and others) advice is watch this space, to see if any further things like this happen, and screenshot any successful points upgrades on the spot. And be prepared for a long complaints proccess to kick into action.

Eventually someone will do this, get the upgrade, screenshot/email/sms confimation and then get downgraded at the airport or later and then they will eventually take QF to the cleaners for a large amount of points, and possibly other more expensive compensation.

both incidents might be unrelated.

we don't know.

but the airline representative is not forthcoming with either an explanation or a timeline for an explanation.

some strategic thinking (being proactive) could clear up any potential negativity.

 

[Kangol]

I would have been doing OLCI in that circumstance - printing to a .pdf and emailing it to myself if no printer available ...

I am 1/1 for international upgrades and that time I could not OLCI - had to go to F check-in. I posted that in the "international upgrades" thread and from memory, I was not the only one who had reported such an occurrence.

Interested to see if your experience has been different, especially with the more recent revised rules of processing at the gate.

 

[serfty]

I am 1/1 for international upgrades and that time I could not OLCI - had to go to F check-in. I posted that in the "international upgrades" thread and from memory, I was not the only one who had reported such an occurrence.

Interested to see if your experience has been different, especially with the more recent revised rules of processing at the gate.

It's 2½ years since I had an international upgrade request processed and I'm not sure international OLCI was available back then.

(These days I don't leave such important things to the whims of how many CL, WP1 or WP>PCV's ona flight.)

 

[Princess Fiona]

I do OLCI often before the upgrade is processed. Most of my upgrades are within T-24. Get an SMS roughly half of the time. I must admit I've never previously did screenshots etc when upgrades come through but after reading of the examples here I will definitely be doing it from now on :shock:

 

[amaroo]

Last Int upgrade was mid Dec.....got the sms, saw the seat allocation had changed on QFF but the seats were still open on EF. I think it was a time delay between the two systems.

Took a screen shot of the new allocated seats and point deductions - just in case. No need for them and we very much enjoyed the flight.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Whether by human error - or by a bug in the upgrade software or notification procceses (QF will not or cannot tell us whats happening here but I would suspect that if this is not happening every day, then it may be a human being, either from checkin all the way up to yield management or IT fiddling with the software), so my (and others) advice is watch this space, to see if any further things like this happen, and screenshot any successful points upgrades on the spot. And be prepared for a long complaints proccess to kick into action.

Eventually someone will do this, get the upgrade, screenshot/email/sms confimation and then get downgraded at the airport or later and then they will eventually take QF to the cleaners for a large amount of points, and possibly other more expensive compensation.

Let's assume that QF doesn't have a legal right to "downgrade" you without compensation (aka they can't just cancel your upgrade).

Surely you'd just get rebooked on the next available flight or similar compensation, just as if you were on a revenue ticket. "Stuff" happens all the time that stops people getting on planes (planes get downgraded, seats go "tech" and are not available), and QF doesn't get "taken" to the cleaners each time. They just give you some options: downgrade with some fare difference compensation, or rebook you on another flight.

 

[eastwest101]

Let's assume that QF doesn't have a legal right to "downgrade" you without compensation (aka they can't just cancel your upgrade).

Surely you'd just get rebooked on the next available flight or similar compensation, just as if you were on a revenue ticket. "Stuff" happens all the time that stops people getting on planes (planes get downgraded, seats go "tech" and are not available), and QF doesn't get "taken" to the cleaners each time. They just give you some options: downgrade with some fare difference compensation, or rebook you on another flight.

Okay - have reread the entire thread from the start. I think we are in agreement. The OP, pugwombat had a confirmed upgrade, points were deducted, then downgraded at the airport then points reinstated and about a week later got extra compensation of 20K QFF points possibly due to investigation and/or assistance from redroo QF rep.

Its not clear in pugwombats case, or in even featheast's case as to what exact options were given to them. Who knows? Only pugwombat can say, but was a downgrade actually offered? (with understanding of points reinstated?) - possibly not as pugwombat had to chase it up with the QF rep. Was an alternative J class seat offered to pugwombat on the next day's QF flight? We don't know that either. Was another J class seat option offered for the same/next day? e.g. a seat on JL J class or even CX J class?

So if none of those options were presented to pugwombat then I think we could say that would be a problem. I agree that stuff happens a lot (plane configs change, J class seats/oxygen masks go unservicable for instance), but its how the airline explains/compensates or recovers the upgrade reneging situation that is important to some people here.

If someone had hard evidence of the upgrade being confimed, and then unconfirmed/reneged, then many posters are here are arguing that the person is in the exact same situation as a paid J class passenger turning up and not having a J class seat available. All the same compensation options should be open and explained to the passenger. In that case you would expect options/compensation as you discuss. Personally I would be ropeable if that happened to me, and would be insisting on all points re-instated, ORC applied and being put on a JL or CX J class seat (if convenient to me), I would not be caring if its an inconvenience to Qantas, thats not my problem. Imagine the situation where there is only a few remaining J class seats on the JL flight - and QF had to rebook and pay full last minute price for pugwombat and mrs pugwombat seats on JL or even CX business class? Those 20K QFF point compensation aren't looking that big a deal now are they? Hence my earlier comment that QF got off very lightly in my opinion.

Remember that the QF rep apologized and said it was an error and they were looking into it not happening again. Maybe an impossible promise - but in featheast's case we know that the points were not deducted, so that was possibly a different situation to pugwombat's case.

The other issue is that QF aren't being forthcoming as to the exact reason why this occurred in the first place (or pugwombat and featheast cannot or will not say- fair enough), and true - QF can hide behind the catch-all phrase of "operational reasons" if they want, it just means that by leaving us all in the dark, we can speculate all we want on what are the risks of "operational reasons" reneging confimed upgrade when we put our upgrade requests in. Or maybe its all too hard and we just book with other airlines that can do upgrade requests properly....

I think its interesting that either QF aren't interested in why this happened, or won't say why this happened, or won't tell anyone why this happened. Again - the mushroom treatment. And sure QF may not owe it to me to explain what happened to pugwombat, but I think they probably could explain to pugwmbat as it was pugwombat who was affected by the error/bug/mistake.

Lots of other issues about baggage allowance difference between J calss and Y class also not answered.

 

[MelUser]

This is not exactly on point but a couple of years ago I was on an AA flight from SFO to JFK.
I was in paid First Class. It was scheduled as a 2 class 767 - ie First and Economy.
Overnight the 767 became unserviceable and a 757 was substituted.
Obviously the First class cabin was much much smaller.
We took our seats - 2 adults plus infant.
A number of people walked past us and remarked rather loudly - "they taken our seats!"
I was surprised but not shocked as AA Executive Platinums regard it is almost a right to buy an economy ticket and get upgraded.
I can only guess that they were upgraded passengers and as we were revenue pax we kept our seats.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I was surprised but not shocked as AA Executive Platinums regard it is almost a right to buy an economy ticket and get upgraded.

Not half as surprised as they when they come out here only to find out that it's not 'operation reciprocity'.

Yes planes on occasion do go out with spare seats in premium cabins here in Oz.

I overheard one guy who was a DL Elite say to the gate agent "I haven't flown economy in 15 years". Guess what the drought just broke.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

eastwest101 - I think you'll find the Qantas terms and conditions and charter don't support carriage on another airline in the event Qantas can't live up to its promise to carry you. All they say is that they will offer you a full refund, or carry you on the next service.

If you do choose to go on the next service... then who pays for your hotel?

Qf's customer charter clearly says they have the right to sell your confirmed seat (even in economy... not talking about upgrades here) to another passenger and offer you no compensation other than a refund or travel on the next flight (which could be as late as 24 hours away).

We need to have a compensation regime similar to EU261 to put things back in favour of the passenger.

 

[daturtle]

I caught QF L8 one morning as a domenstic from BNE-SYD (just to sit upstairs...was worth it) and there were people in Sydney who had to get rebooked as the flight was three hours late. I overheard one passenger being informed that he was being rebooked onto a Thai Airways flight. Different circumstances I know, but food for thought none the less.

 

[Julesmac]

No real harm was done, eh?

Well, I for one would take issue with that.

I reckon they found someone who was prepared to pay for the seats, or who was a Platinum FF and they decided they could stiff me because I am just a Gold FF. My original point was: I am still mightily pissed off. I spend a heap on Qantas flights (mostly for my employees). Qantas thought that they could get away with giving the seats to someone who was worth more to them, because, hey he's just a Gold FF, he's not worth that much to us. Which is why I'm fully prepared to take my $80-90k and give it to another airline that does value loyalty.

It isn't just the lost upgrade, because if they'd told me beforehand that there hadn't been seats available then I would have accepted it (but would have been disappointed). It was their view that offering and then retracting the offer of Business Class seats was acceptable, because they thought they could do so without consequence. I'm telling them that there are consequences in really annoying loyal customers.

....and isn't just THE issue we have with Qantas. They seem clueless about how much their actions p15s off loyal customers. Takes longer and lots more $$ to gain a new customer than to retain an existing one. Someone explain that to AJ please

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Qf's customer charter clearly says they have the right to sell your confirmed seat (even in economy... not talking about upgrades here) to another passenger and offer you no compensation other than a refund or travel on the next flight (which could be as late as 24 hours away).

We need to have a compensation regime similar to EU261 to put things back in favour of the passenger.

Who do you think pays for compensation schemes? Either the customers, or the shareholders.

What would be simpler, and probably less expensive, would be to change what's permitted in a contract of sale.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Who do you think pays for compensation schemes? Either the customers, or the shareholders.

What would be simpler, and probably less expensive, would be to change what's permitted in a contract of sale.

I'm not sure how it will cost the customer more? Or even shareholders?

If Qantas has 64 seats in business class on its a380 but decides to sell seats 65-70, and you turn up and are downgraded... why should it only say 'here's a refund' or 'take the next flight'?

It should pay out a nice 75% of the ticket price like they do in the EU. That way QF doesn't profit from overselling. And the customer doesn't lose out.

It's not the passenger's fault if QF 'gets it wrong' and sells too many seats. QF (or any airline) should not profit from that.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I'm not sure how it will cost the customer more? Or even shareholders?

You claim, just below, that QF is profiting from current practises, and shouldn't be allowed to do so.

That profit currently goes to shareholders. Remove that source of profit, and then either (a) shareholders will suffer or (b) fares will rise to restore profit (i.e. customers will pay)

Anything that costs money (new places, fancier service, compensation schemes) either need to be paid for by customers, or by shareholders. Who else do you think is going to pay?

If Qantas has 64 seats in business class on its a380 but decides to sell seats 65-70, and you turn up and are downgraded... why should it only say 'here's a refund' or 'take the next flight'?

It should pay out a nice 75% of the ticket price like they do in the EU. That way QF doesn't profit from overselling. And the customer doesn't lose out.

It's not the passenger's fault if QF 'gets it wrong' and sells too many seats. QF (or any airline) should not profit from that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You claim, just below, that QF is profiting from current practises, and shouldn't be allowed to do so.

That profit currently goes to shareholders. Remove that source of profit, and then either (a) shareholders will suffer or (b) fares will rise to restore profit (i.e. customers will pay)

Anything that costs money (new places, fancier service, compensation schemes) either need to be paid for by customers, or by shareholders. Who else do you think is going to pay?

for me, there is a slight difference between the two concepts.

if you oversell a seat, that is profit you shouldn't have anyway. So giving it back to another passenger who has missed out (ie compensation) means no net loss, no net gain to the airline. They don't have to 'find' money anywhere to pay that compensation.

only if you accept that an airline should be able to make a profit by selling something that it doesn't have, does the compensation come out of the bottom line (or from shareholders).

 

[tyrolean]

But remember: Overbooking really makes sense. There are usually quite a large number of people who do not show up for the flight, because their plans change, they get stuck in the traffic jam, they want to stay longer, their guinea pig has a birthday party... Or they need to change the plane or a single seat breaks.

If Airlines would not overbook they definitely would fly with many empty seats - so it would be commercially nonsense. So overbooking is per se not the problem. Usually they have very good prognosis systems - so nothing happens. But if something happens it is the way how the airline treats it.

- Easy way - upgrades to the higher COS - no one complains. The Forum is full, how to score upgrades! No overbooking, no free upgrades!
- Second easy way: Ask for volunteers and give them compensation, if they fly on the next flight.
- Third way: Pick up bad souls and offer them good compensation. Let them chose between downgrade or alternative transport.

If I would have a confirmed ticket in a special COS, I would prefer to take an other flight in the same COS than a downgrade!

The way QF did handle this was very poor!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But remember: Overbooking really makes sense. There are usually quite a large number of people who do not show up for the flight, because their plans change, they get stuck in the traffic jam, they want to stay longer, their guinea pig has a birthday party... Or they need to change the plane or a single seat breaks.

If Airlines would not overbook they definitely would fly with many empty seats - so it would be commercially nonsense. So overbooking is per se not the problem. Usually they have very good prognosis systems - so nothing happens. But if something happens it is the way how the airline treats it.

- Easy way - upgrades to the higher COS - no one complains. The Forum is full, how to score upgrades! No overbooking, no free upgrades!
- Second easy way: Ask for volunteers and give them compensation, if they fly on the next flight.
- Third way: Pick up bad souls and offer them good compensation. Let them chose between downgrade or alternative transport.

If I would have a confirmed ticket in a special COS, I would prefer to take an other flight in the same COS than a downgrade!

The way QF did handle this was very poor!

sure - if an airline overbooks to prevent empty seats that's ok. BUT - it shouldn't unduly profit from that. if everyone turns up then the extra seat(s) they sold weren't theirs to sell. so any $$ they make should go to the pax who missed out.

offering a full refund may be next to useless...if you bought an $898 fare to hong Kong but you're bumped, how much do you think you'll get your one way walk-up fare for? so what does the passenger do? they have to wait for the next service. the airline wins (full flight and gets an extra fare), the passenger loses with a potential delay of 24 hours until the next flight.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

sure - if an airline overbooks to prevent empty seats that's ok. BUT - it shouldn't unduly profit from that. if everyone turns up then the extra seat(s) they sold weren't theirs to sell. so any $$ they make should go to the pax who missed out.

Regardless of the "rights or wrongs" of this profit that QANTAS is making (and we can use the same argument for assisted booking fees for things you can't book yourself), it's currently a source of revenue (and profit) for QANTAS. Take that away, and either (a) shareholders get less money -or- (b) customers pay more.

Effectively this "ill-gotten" profit is subsidising current fares and shareholder returns. Take it way, and the subsidies also disappear.

If you disagree with this, then just simply explain who you think pays for extra costs (or loss of revenue) that a business incurs? My argument is that it's customers or shareholders. If not those two, then who?