Abbott in Government

[cove]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

McKew is helping us understand a bit more about Kevin Rudd.
Now there is a guy who will keep on giving if we let the cartoonists loose.

 

[11sjw]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Privatising HECS debt is an interesting proposition. I'm sure I had read a few years ago that a decent portion of debt would never be repaid due to income thresholds not being reached.

Libs may sell $23b HECS debt - The West Australian

I assume private industry would want those income thresholds lowered or removed.

Also a possible sell off of Australia Post.

I know the "left leaning" among us say our debt isn't in a similar position to the US and that's correct. However they had to start somewhere and they never seemed to stop. What I never heard from the ALP was any proposal to repay our debt. If this money is used to do that then I see some positives, however the family jewels can only be sold once.

 

[Moody]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Privatising HECS debt is an interesting proposition. I'm sure I had read a few years ago that a decent portion of debt would never be repaid due to income thresholds not being reached.

Libs may sell $23b HECS debt - The West Australian

I assume private industry would want those income thresholds lowered or removed.

Also a possible sell off of Australia Post.

I know the "left leaning" among us say our debt isn't in a similar position to the US and that's correct. However they had to start somewhere and they never seemed to stop. What I never heard from the ALP was any proposal to repay our debt. If this money is used to do that then I see some positives, however the family jewels can only be sold once.

Hmmm..... sounds like they want to sell off the $23B cheaply to a debt collector. I have had a bad experience of one many years ago when an ex-girlfriend left me with a Telstra debt that I wasn't aware of. Rather than doing a 5-minute search for a new postal address for me they flicked it to some mob who rang me up (yes - it was that easy) and said if I didn't pay them within a week they would put a black mark on my credit record. I was happy to pay the money (it was my fault for trusting the ex) but the whole manner of how it was handled left a bad taste in my mouth. I would be very wary of setting the dogs onto ex-students just to convert a theoretical $23B into a "real" $15B (my guesstimate).

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Privatising HECS debt is an interesting proposition. I'm sure I had read a few years ago that a decent portion of debt would never be repaid due to income thresholds not being reached.

Libs may sell $23b HECS debt - The West Australian

I assume private industry would want those income thresholds lowered or removed.

Awesome. The neoliberal dream marches on. Maybe only another couple of generations until they've completely destroyed the middle classes, privatised everything, and can claim victory over the demons of egalitarianism and class mobility.

 

[Alanslegal]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Another Liberal MP with what appears to be a very dodgy travel expense claim (..... to attend the settlement of his investment property in Carins.)

 

[casanovawa]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

How can you get a uni degree and then never reach the thresholds to start paying it back??? They're hardly set at "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" levels??? Bad enough that a few wasted everyones time and resources faffing around to no particular point, but a large amount of the loans???

While it may have been sold to them under those pretenses, pretty lousy waste of a national resource that may let so many get a free ride (probably all those arts degrees )... If the system is working in terms of the majority being paid back over time and an interest rate being charged that strikes a balance between a national investment in higher education and money being worth less over time, then maybe not a great need to privatise it...

 

[casanovawa]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

[BTW - it's "Backstabbing Billy" don't you know. Keep up with the kindergarten name calling ....]

Oh Moods, you'd be amongst the biggest "kindergarten name callers" of all...

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

How can you get a uni degree and then never reach the thresholds to start paying it back??? They're hardly set at "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" levels??? Bad enough that a few wasted everyones time and resources faffing around to no particular point, but a large amount of the loans???

Payback threshold is about $50k, which is also around the national median income.

So in the ballpark of half the people in Australia don't earn enough to hit the HECS payment threshold.

Then there's the HECS debts of permanent ex-pats, and the deceased.

If the system is working in terms of the majority being paid back over time and an interest rate being charged that strikes a balance between a national investment in higher education and money being worth less over time, then maybe not a great need to privatise it...

Or you could take the bigger picture view that the costs to society and the economy as a whole of making higher education accessible to pretty much anyone, have been dwarfed by the benefits of people leveraging the education they otherwise would never have had.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

I know the "left leaning" among us say our debt isn't in a similar position to the US and that's correct.

And as loathe as they would be, if the "right leaning" amongst us were (for a change) to be honest they would be compelled to say the same thing.

 

[casanovawa]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Payback threshold is about $50k, which is also around the national median income.

So in the ballpark of half the people in Australia don't earn enough to hit the HECS payment threshold.

Then there's the HECS debts of permanent ex-pats, and the deceased.

While the repayment threshold maybe around the median wage, i would suggest that most Australian university degrees are oriented towards increasing work/career skills rather than personal fulfilment and with 25% of the population having a bachelors degree or above in a report released by the ABS last year, you would hope that at least those that finished the degree would be skewed towards being above the median wage, or what was the point of it all (although i recall seeing more than a few people coasting through uni while i was there doing the bare minimum to squeak through and expecting a bit of paper to magically put them on an expressway to success)... I think the dead people especially, and probably ex-pats, will be insulated from the grasp of terrible debt collectors...

Or you could take the bigger picture view that the benefits to society and the economy as a whole of making higher education accessible to pretty much anyone, has been dwarfed by the benefits of people leveraging the education they otherwise would never have had.

I'm assuming that's meant to be the cost is dwarfed by the benefits?? The cost is exceeded if the benefits are in proportion to it or greater... What we may have been able to accept as a decent utilisation and set of end benefits of the education services provided several years ago may have to be reassessed over time, especially as more and more higher education institutions cry poor and clamour for more money and how hard up they are... Does no harm to reassess this periodically...

And the idea that education can only be gotten through a uni is another furfy or how did the world survive back prior to the 90s when many managers and people in business had no degree, or at least they weren't compulsory... A uni degree is a way to neatly package and concentrate a collection of ideas that allows for tests and exams to be done and a bit of paper handed out at the end... Some do it well, other institutions less so, but all of us would usually acknowledge that they learnt lots of things in their uni course that they have never used... I know a young economist who came to work for our dept with honours who said she learnt more in 6 months than in 3-4 years at uni... Plenty of others in business would also contrast the value of book learning to real world experience... So i can't agree that the only way to end up with an educated workforce is to pay for near on universal education however it ends up being utilised... I think these days its never been easier or cheaper to expose yourself to a world of ideas if your interested and motivated to do so from which ever strata of society you come... Most people aren't unfortuantely and require spoon feeding...

But anyway, I am not knocking the whole system, i'm just saying its fair to look at it if a large amount of these loans are never being paid back in a period of tightening budgets for governments and institutions...

 

[11sjw]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

How can you get a uni degree and then never reach the thresholds to start paying it back??? They're hardly set at "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" levels??? Bad enough that a few wasted everyones time and resources faffing around to no particular point, but a large amount of the loans???

While it may have been sold to them under those pretenses, pretty lousy waste of a national resource that may let so many get a free ride (probably all those arts degrees )... If the system is working in terms of the majority being paid back over time and an interest rate being charged that strikes a balance between a national investment in higher education and money being worth less over time, then maybe not a great need to privatise it...

Pretty sure the debt is indexed at inflation so it goes some ways to maintaining its worth.

 

[11sjw]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

And as loathe as they would be, if the "right leaning" amongst us were (for a change) to be honest they would be compelled to say the same thing.

So when do we pay it back?

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

While the repayment threshold maybe around the median wage, i would suggest that most Australian university degrees are oriented towards increasing work/career skills rather than personal fulfilment and with 25% of the population having a bachelors degree or above in a report released by the ABS last year, you would hope that at least those that finished the degree would be skewed towards being above the median wage, or what was the point of it all (although i recall seeing more than a few people coasting through uni while i was there doing the bare minimum to squeak through and expecting a bit of paper to magically put them on an expressway to success)... I think the dead people especially, and probably ex-pats, will be insulated from the grasp of terrible debt collectors...

The median graduate salary in 2012 was $50-$55,000.

You get a degree to help with your lifetime earnings, much more than your early income.

I'm assuming that's meant to be the cost is dwarfed by the benefits?? The cost is exceeded if the benefits are in proportion to it or greater... What we may have been able to accept as a decent utilisation and set of end benefits of the education services provided several years ago may have to be reassessed over time, especially as more and more higher education institutions cry poor and clamour for more money and how hard up they are... Does no harm to reassess this periodically...

Certainly, but the total purported "loss" from unpaid HECS is somewhere around $6 billion. Which, to put in context, is a similar sum to that which the Australian Government is happy to throw away subsidising the losses of property "investors" every year.

I propose that the value added to the economy as a whole from the higher-skilled workforce produced by relatively easy access to higher education options, far, far exceeds $6 billion. Particularly when considering the future, where within a couple of generations pretty much all unskilled (and a chunk of skilled, I imagine) labour will have been made obselete by robots.

To say nothing of the less tangible cultural benefits.

And the idea that education can only be gotten through a uni is another furfy or how did the world survive back prior to the 90s when many managers and people in business had no degree, or at least they weren't compulsory...

I never said that education could only be gotten through university. Indeed, I think the decline in recognition of the value of skills gained in TAFEs or through apprenticeships is a travesty.

However, the generation of managers and business owners you are talking about, are the same ones that have driven these outcomes.

A uni degree is a way to neatly package and concentrate a collection of ideas that allows for tests and exams to be done and a bit of paper handed out at the end...

No, a Uni degree is about being taught a set of general skills about learning and large amount of established knowledge and skillsets within a particular field.

Or at least it is if you're going to a proper University, rather than a tarted-up trade school.

Some do it well, other institutions less so, but all of us would usually acknowledge that they learnt lots of things in their uni course that they have never used... I know a young economist who came to work for our dept with honours who said she learnt more in 6 months than in 3-4 years at uni...

Of course, her ability to learn so much in six months was almost certainly enabled by the skills and knowledge imparted throughout her university degree.

An Engineer will learn an immense amount in their first twelve months on the job. But that same person starting that same job without having already studied Engineering, will not only be barely productive, but learn very little as well.

Specialised, highly-skilled, advanced labour is built on a substantial foundation of acquired knowledge and skills. Just like those specialised skills and knowledge are built on a foundation of basic knowledge - things like language, mathematics and science.

Plenty of others in business would also contrast the value of book learning to real world experience... So i can't agree that the only way to end up with an educated workforce is to pay for near on universal education however it ends up being utilised...

You are conflating the terms "education" and "university studies".

HECS is intended for University study. Similar programs could be used for post-secondary education outside of University.

I think these days its never been easier or cheaper to expose yourself to a world of ideas if your interested and motivated to do so from which ever strata of society you come... Most people aren't unfortuantely and require spoon feeding...

One downside to self-education is you are rarely, if ever, exposed to knowledge and ideas you haven't explicitly sought. It tends to create tunnel vision.
Another is that you typically have no reliable way of demonstrating your skills to potential employers.
A downside to self-sourced materials is that you have no way of verifying their veracity.

But anyway, I am not knocking the whole system, i'm just saying its fair to look at it if a large amount of these loans are never being paid back in a period of tightening budgets for governments and institutions...

The "need" to "tighten budgets" is almost entirely artificially created. If we didn't have a system that had spent the last few decades becoming progressively more skewed in favour of unproductive rent-seekers and against entrepreneurialism and productive labour, we wouldn't have any problems funding public services like education.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

So when do we pay it back?

When we stop wasting money on things like negative gearing and baby bonuses.
When we start incentivising creativity and productivity and disincentivising hoarding and rent-seeking.
When we have an economy based on making stuff and adding value, rather than trading houses with each other and digging holes in the ground.
When we start trying to make everyone rich rather than funnel as much wealth as possible to a shrinking percentage of the population.

None of these things are going to happen under a conservative Government, because they are counter to its core beliefs and goals.

 

[Moody]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Oh Moods, you'd be amongst the biggest "kindergarten name callers" of all...

Rubbish! Quote one ....

 

[Skyring]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Awesome. The neoliberal dream marches on. Maybe only another couple of generations until they've completely destroyed the middle classes, privatised everything, and can claim victory over the demons of egalitarianism and class mobility.

Aw, c'mon! That's just ridiculous.

Labor will get its act together and get back into power before your estimate. Not soon, obviously, but they don't give up easy.

 

[Skyring]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

there was a piece on a tv talk show the other night (sorry can't site the source) they asked a trick question. which did people prefer obamacare or the affordable healthcare act?

and they let these people carry guns...

I, for one, welcome our new arthropod overlord.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Aw, c'mon! That's just ridiculous.

Labor will get its act together and get back into power before your estimate. Not soon, obviously, but they don't give up easy.

You seem to be implying there's some meaningful difference between the economic policies of the Liberals and New Labor.

 

[Skyring]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

You seem to be implying there's some meaningful difference between the economic policies of the Liberals and New Labor.

Nah, just amused at the various reactions of those working through the five stages of grief.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Nah, just amused at the various reactions of those working through the five stages of grief.

Strange, it seemed to me you were suggesting I might think the outcome would be changed when Labor regained power.