This is dinner on QF CNS - SYD

[Popeye]

I've just been trying to look at these figures too, but can't find the data. Its not in the QF 2018 results presentation which is downloadable here.

What I'm after is the domestic net operating income (revenue from domestic operations less expenses) and the number of domestic passenger journeys. Not after 'profit' as that's not meaningfull in the context of present discussion.

Can anyone help in locating those figures?

Would be interesting to know what level of margin that represents.

 

[eastwest101]

Can understand the OP complaint here, consider that the flight departs at 455pm from CNS and on the QF website it's a 2hr 55m flight time so the OP isn't getting any chance at a substantial bit of food until at least 8pm at SYD airport and assuming that the OP doesn't reside in SYD airport, probably later than that. So assuming the OP had the time and didn't want to eat dinner at 4pm in CNS airport then it could be argued that the OP had a reasonable expectation of some sort of dinner service on a full service airline advertising that.

Qantas charge very high domestic airfares (with Australian airfares being quite high by world standards) and advertise themselves as a full service carrier, and failed to provide the service they advertised on that particular flight.

Whether it's a one off catering mistake or more deliberate cost cutting is the interesting question.

 

[Mrmaxwell]

Nothing will change I'm afraid...

AJ has been gloating how QF have over 80% of the corporate market wrapped up and have increased their SME and leisure markets too.

They don't need to change anything as current offerings have not caused them to lose market share.

 

[Jack_OC]

Qantas charge very high domestic airfares (with Australian airfares being quite high by world standards).

I’m not entirely convinced about this. For a start, there are not that many other countries big enough to have proper domestic air networks, so there aren’t many apples to apples comparators out there. Other than the US and Canada, I can’t think of any other “first world” countries where a ~3 hour domestic flight is even possible.

IME, domestic airfares in the US are often more expensive than for flights of similar duration in Australia. I’ve taken quite a few 1-3 hr flights in the US recently (in Y), with all 3 of the major full service airlines there (AA, DL and UA), and the fares have ranged between AU$300-500 one way. I’ve never got anything vaguely resembling a proper meal on any of these flights, I don’t think booze was free on any of them, checked bags were only free for those with status, and of course the lounges were generally terrible compared to most QF lounges. And then there is the fact that in many cases US domestic flights are operated by small and crampt “regional jet” aircraft.

In Europe most flights are international (certainly when it comes to flights longer than an hour or so in duration), and again I’m not convinced that fares are much cheaper on a like for like basis. Food is usually pretty basic there too, if provided at all.

 

[juddles]

I do believe the profit per passenger is in the are aof $25 to $30 pretax based on 53 million passengers carried and pretax earnings of around $1.6 billion dollars. Not the $5-$8.00 as per your figures.

Sorry Ansett, I should have been clearer - the $5 figure was for ECONOMY QF pax only. I am trying desperately to find the article I read this in which dissected the various aspects of QF's operations - will post when I find. Also, Loyalty and Jetstar are very healthy components in the often quoted QF profit figures, which I wanted to remove as the OP's complaint was about a QF service (or lack there of)

If you use the Qantas Group (ie including Jetstar) figures, the EBIT of 1.4B (without Loyalty) divided by the group pax carried of 55m people (53 million was the previous year) you do get about $25 per pax. But this averaged over all fares - Y, PE, J and F, and does not take into account the earnings from freight (not a biggie, but in this business every $ counts )

Edit: maybe the specific discussion on "profit per pax" could be moved to a separate thread?? It is a fascinating (for me) topic, and is clearly only a side issue to the OP's complaint, which is specifically about customer expectations/falsity of QF in saying they will serve "dinner"

 

[Popeye]

Sorry Ansett, I should have been clearer - the $5 figure was for ECONOMY QF pax only. I am trying desperately to find the article I read this in which dissected the various aspects of QF's operations - will post when I find. Also, Loyalty and Jetstar are very healthy components in the often quoted QF profit figures, which I wanted to remove as the OP's complaint was about a QF service (or lack there of)

If you use the Qantas Group (ie including Jetstar) figures, the EBIT of 1.4B (without Loyalty) divided by the group pax carried of 55m people (53 million was the previous year) you do get about $25 per pax. But this averaged over all fares - Y, PE, J and F, and does not take into account the earnings from freight (not a biggie, but in this business every $ counts )

Edit: maybe the specific discussion on "profit per pax" could be moved to a separate thread?? It is a fascinating (for me) topic, and is clearly only a side issue to the OP's complaint, which is specifically about customer expectations/falsity of QF in saying they will serve "dinner"

Gday Juddles,

This post was about QF not delivering on advertised/ promoted product as per their own website.

Your analysis paralysis about EBIT or even EBITDA for that fact and cost and profit per pax as justifications as to the behaviour has nothing to do with the fact that QF have reniged on their own promise of delivery of service that could be construed as a breach of contract...... but i am sure that there is something in the fine print that gets them out of this

 

[samh004]

when are they going to start to give back

They are a company that is set up to make profits, the only people they should be giving back to is shareholders, and considering their share price was ~$1 not long ago and is now ~$6 I think they have done a pretty good job.

 

[kamchatsky]

@Popeye, the food looks cough. I buy 6 large frozen buns from Asian grocery stores for $6 and I bet it taste much better than yours.

I suggest you fly VA next time. You will get minimal food like cheese and crackers, but you can buy on board and their fares are almost always cheaper than QF on the similar time.

 

[Popeye]

They are a company that is set up to make profits, the only people they should be giving back to is shareholders, and considering their share price was ~$1 not long ago and is now ~$6 I think they have done a pretty good job.

Sold mine at $1.95 about 5 years ago as dividends had disappeared . Used them to help Mrs Popeye fix herself up. Our new girls are affectionately called QF1 and QF2...

 

[Popeye]

Sorry Ansett, I should have been clearer - the $5 figure was for ECONOMY QF pax only. I am trying desperately to find the article I read this in which dissected the various aspects of QF's operations - will post when I find. Also, Loyalty and Jetstar are very healthy components in the often quoted QF profit figures, which I wanted to remove as the OP's complaint was about a QF service (or lack there of)

If you use the Qantas Group (ie including Jetstar) figures, the EBIT of 1.4B (without Loyalty) divided by the group pax carried of 55m people (53 million was the previous year) you do get about $25 per pax. But this averaged over all fares - Y, PE, J and F, and does not take into account the earnings from freight (not a biggie, but in this business every $ counts )

Edit: maybe the specific discussion on "profit per pax" could be moved to a separate thread?? It is a fascinating (for me) topic, and is clearly only a side issue to the OP's complaint, which is specifically about customer expectations/falsity of QF in saying they will serve "dinner"

PS Juddles,

Since you seem to be obsessed with the costs that poor old QF has to bear in respect of delivering their product , i would be interested to hear an explanation from you as to why , with the type of food ie box of buns , that every pax was supplied with a packaged cutlery set ? . doh!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

They are a company that is set up to make profits, the only people they should be giving back to is shareholders, and considering their share price was ~$1 not long ago and is now ~$6 I think they have done a pretty good job.

Yes. But the shareholders can only make money if people fly. The airline has, over the years, asked its passengers for sympathy in the face of plunging profits and rising fuel. Devalued award program, cost cutting in the food department, huge fuel surcharges.

Passengers accepted all of that, partly because of the handcuffs of status, but also loyalty to the Aussie airline. Now with the turnaround in fortunes, none of the changes have been reversed. Yet the shareholders still expect people to give their loyalty?

It could be argued a small investment in passengers could recover an even greater return for shareholders.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

that every pax was supplied with a packaged cutlery set ? . doh!

Could be replaced with a single wet-wipe to clean fingers before and after eating.

 

[juddles]

PS Juddles,

Since you seem to be obsessed with the costs that poor old QF has to bear in respect of delivering their product , i would be interested to hear an explanation from you as to why , with the type of food ie box of buns , that every pax was supplied with a packaged cutlery set ? . doh!

Popeye, forgive me if I do not simply agree with your original post. I actually agree, given the linked QF blurbs, that you should have received a full meal.

But I still reserve my right to give opinions on associated matters. Airlines always do it tough. The one billion dollar profit that every one harps on about seems to forget they also still have 4 billion + in debts. Airlines are extremely hard to sustain in the black (in the absence of JohnK running them )

I hear you re the missing meal. But it seems to me so many people treat (think about) airlines so differently to other service providers. QF have about a 10 % margin on their main products - Domestic, Jetstar. International is much slimmer. I am sure almost every other business you do business with has hugely greater margins.

Can you share what you actually paid for the fare? So i can compare it to a bus fare or driving.

 

[juddles]

I do not believe much of QF hype, but they are also careful to not say something untrue. So I believe them when they say that an average domestic fare these days costs 40% less than 15 years ago. In REAL dollars. That is made possible by efficiency, etc. And cutting costs.

You get what you pay for. Unfortunately it appears the QF hype has not been updated to their new real world offerings. I agree with that.

But if you keep acusing me of being a QF staff member or similar you are just avoiding reality

 

[Popeye]

Popeye, forgive me if I do not simply agree with your original post. I actually agree, given the linked QF blurbs, that you should have received a full meal.

But I still reserve my right to give opinions on associated matters. Airlines always do it tough. The one billion dollar profit that every one harps on about seems to forget they also still have 4 billion + in debts. Airlines are extremely hard to sustain in the black (in the absence of JohnK running them )

I hear you re the missing meal. But it seems to me so many people treat (think about) airlines so differently to other service providers. QF have about a 10 % margin on their main products - Domestic, Jetstar. International is much slimmer. I am sure almost every other business you do business with has hugely greater margins.

Can you share what you actually paid for the fare? So i can compare it to a bus fare or driving.

Full economy x 2

 

[juddles]

.........

Passengers accepted all of that, partly because of the handcuffs of status, but also loyalty to the Aussie airline. Now with the turnaround in fortunes, none of the changes have been reversed. Yet the shareholders still expect people to give their loyalty?

It could be argued a small investment in passengers could recover an even greater return for shareholders....

"It could be argued that a small investment in passengers could recover an even greater return for shareholders" ?? Sorry, but where do you sit on this fence?? QF is doing a fantastic job for their shareholders at the moment - dragging the airline out of losses, giving shareholder returns, etc. Are you saying that you know better than their team how to improve the profitability of the company? They appear to me to be doing very well in a very hard market. QF domestic has had essentially static revenue for the past four years. But they have brought their profitability forward (yes, cost cutting and efficiency). Whatever they are doing, is succeeding as a company.

 

[Popeye]

Popeye, forgive me if I do not simply agree with your original post. I actually agree, given the linked QF blurbs, that you should have received a full meal.

But I still reserve my right to give opinions on associated matters. Airlines always do it tough. The one billion dollar profit that every one harps on about seems to forget they also still have 4 billion + in debts. Airlines are extremely hard to sustain in the black (in the absence of JohnK running them )

I hear you re the missing meal. But it seems to me so many people treat (think about) airlines so differently to other service providers. QF have about a 10 % margin on their main products - Domestic, Jetstar. International is much slimmer. I am sure almost every other business you do business with has hugely greater margins.

Can you share what you actually paid for the fare? So i can compare it to a bus fare or driving.

Hi Juddles,

Try preaching your drivel about profits to cabin crew. The last 4 flights i have been on (in the last 3 weeks) i have repeatedly been told how peed off they are about the profit in that they have been told that they will get a bonus , but only if they agree to a new EBA and if they do it will be paid in 2020. How wrong is it that their staff are coughing about the company to customers... not a good look so the bottom line not only are they upsetting their customers they are also alienating their frontline staff .. explain that Einstein

 

[juddles]

Full economy x 2

That does not help. Full economy on a bus is about

Hi Juddles,

Try preaching your drivel about profits to cabin crew. The last 4 flights i have been on (in the last 3 weeks) i have repeatedly been told how peed off they are about the profit in that they have been told that they will get a bonus , but only if they agree to a new EBA and if they do it will be paid in 2020. How wrong is it that their staff are coughing about the company to customers... not a good look so the bottom line not only are they upsetting their customers they are also alienating their frontline staff .. explain that Einstein

Popeye, I have absolutely no problem with your emotional writing. On the contrary, I enjoy it. But be prepared to back up such comments. What is the "drivel" you speak of? Cold hard facts, or opinions that do not mirror your world view?

 

[juddles]

In any case, each of us makes travel decisions based on the totality of what we perceive is the best for ourselves at the time. Given your outrage at Qantas I would assume you will only travel Virgin in the near future. Historically (as per the usual feedback on AFF) you will try that for about 3 to 6 months before you return to the QF fold. I look forward to your outrage at Virgin, and your attacks on anyone that then tries to defend said airline.

"Drivel" - I actually love that word being used. It is indicative of the certain and closed opinions of the user. IE it says more about the user than the target......

 

[Popeye]

That does not help. Full economy on a bus is about


Popeye, I have absolutely no problem with your emotional writing. On the contrary, I enjoy it. But be prepared to back up such comments. What is the "drivel" you speak of? Cold hard facts, or opinions that do not mirror your world view?

Dear Juddles,

I retire , you right I quit. QF's need to make a profit far exceeds my expectation to get what they advertised that they would deliver as part of their product

Unlike many , after the flights i already have booked. I will be looking at alternatives. I have LTG with QF and as I always fly J international it means nothing. Domestically after this experience , more than willing to try something else